Sorry but it just doesnt make sense...

N

Nexus

Joined
May 13, 2001
Messages
15
I know Im the new guy and dont have alot of experience with balis but the way you all make it sound is like if I buy a $8 when I flip it for the first time the pins will break, the blade will come flying into my eye and my eye will be fine but the blade will have broken and bent and the edje would have gotten messed up, and the metal handles will snap in half when bounces off my hand...

You know what I mean its just like either you are all VERY picky and perfectionist with butterfly knifes (understandable for collectionists) or just want be to buy from BM because you work for them but I could be wrong, Ive been going throw old posts and I cant figure out why you dont just buy a cheapie and change the pins finger nails or whatever you use like it says in balisongxtreme.com?

or then again you could be like most people are with sport jerseys and just will not tolerate anything thats less then 100% brand made and original.

I dont mean to be rude and try not to slaughter me on this but Im a poor, not midel class, poor, well lower midel class (I own a computer) spanish kid that has seen and wanted a cool looking balisong since the age of 10 to impress his friends and hopes to have the damn thing last a long time.

*tears flow in his eyes
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is it wrong???



[This message has been edited by Nexus (edited 05-16-2001).]
 
I'm sure if you did a search with my name you would see all sorts of criticisms about Benchmade eliminating the M44, 45 and 48 BaliSongs...

I was offended, insulted and thought you rude until you said you were just a kid that wanted to impress your friends.
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It's basically like this: once you've had Benchmade, you'll never go back. But up until then, the others will seem just fine. That's all that matters, at least until you can afford a Benchmade.

And we all support Benchmade because they're the only people putting out a high quality bali
 
As a toy, a cheapie is just fine. It won't take a usable edge, dulls fast, bends easily etc. The pins break under normal repetitive usage but can be replaced easy enough. Once you replace the pins, the handles may break before the new pins do.

If you want a tool, you by a BM, custom, or MT
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They take EXCELLENT edges, are really hard to break (even when thrown against walls and dropped on conrete), the pins are very sturdy and I've never heard of them breaking on anyone. The best part is, they are backed by major names, so if something does break under normal use (pins/handles) most will replace them for free. If you break something on it while abusing, they will charge a minimum fee but will still fix it.

Personally, I prefer tools to toys. I've had a couple of cheapies and found that fliping them after a BM, is like driving a yugo after a Mercedes, it just can't be done comfortably.
 
I have to agree with Darth on this one. The BM's are the only ones that offer a high quality Bali. Soon you will be able to choose between a MT or BM. In the older days you could get a PC, which is one of my fav's, or a Valor. I bought a Pacific Cutlery in 1985, and it has been flipped, and used many time. The blade is still in excellent condition, and holds one hell of an edge. The Jaguar is the best cheapie in my opinion, and they aren't all that cheap. If you want cheap, buy one, but don't plan on it keeping and edge or lasting along time.

Buy yourself a Jag, and I think you will like it. Learn how to manipulate it, and impress the friends.

[This message has been edited by RattlerXX (edited 05-16-2001).]
 
Hello Nexus,

Bm is the junkies choice. An $8.00 cheapie will serfice as a tool so long as you DO expect it's maintanance issues. As for the edge...
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any $8.00 cheapie will take an edge just sharp enough to carve your hands up real nice like so be careful when you get it. Wear the ole boy out and then upgrade when you can!
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Best regards,


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Sabo 29
"Catch you on the flip side"!
 
This popped up in the benchmade v Jag column too... depends on usage. As a toy, yeah, I'll agree a cheapie with replaced blades is fine.

For some of us, (I may be out of line here, so if I am, just shoot me) half of the fun and pride in the ownership is the art in the knife itself.

For example, I seem to recall something about Gollnick having some experience as a machinist(?). The implication there being that he's seen quality work, and he's seen piss poor. And he knows what makes for good work. For him (again, shoot me if I'm misrepresenting) my guess is that half the fun is the pride in knowing not just how to open, close, juggle, etc his knives, but in how they're made, and being able to point out what makes it a good knife, and what parts are really well made, and why. For an example of the depth and quality of his knowledge, check out his reply under "12c27 for the 42...why?" post.

Every so often someone will post a pic here of a really beautiful custom job, or something like that, which makes everyone drool, too, and this is usually followed by a stream of "Who made it? How much? Daaaaaaaaaamn, that's a nice knife!"

Other lines have talked about doing file-work on BM42 handles (for cool looking filework, look up Darrell Ralph's pictures of his Gemini) or ways to colorize them, etc. Usually filework or nice thermal jobs are dome on VERY nice knives, not on cheapies. Cheapies just won't hold up to the task of being tricked out. Just ask disco stu how hard it was to polish up a Jag.

The car analogy is a good one, but not just in terms of performance. Some of those who really get off on these knives know them intimately: what they're made of, why those materials work better, and what they want to do to improve or embellish them. Who designed the knife, in some cases, and some of his other work, and why it's so cool. It's a lot (in some cases) like the guys who tune up their hot rods: They can tell you what parts are installed, why, and what makes them so cool. What's been done, what they want to do, and what companies make good stuff. My guess is that there will soon be a lot of conversation about Benchmade v Microtech that will resemble the Ford v Chevy debate.

Yeah, flipping a Bali around is a lot of fun, and impressing your friends even more so. Around here, though (I think) it's not just knowing the moves. It's knowing the knife... whether it's a classic, what it's made from, Brass (heavy handled, more inertia in spinning and flipping) vs. Titanium (lighter handles, which means less inertia, but more speed, but often much more expensive) etc etc etc.

As another analogy, it's a simple labor of love. True, a really sweet knife is like a trophy date: she looks sweet, and if you can get her in the sack, I bet she's a blast... but probably not relationship material. Then again, for something serious and more lasting, you find someone you like a lot, get along with, and you end up knowing a lot of the intimate details. And it seems to be the details that make for a strong bond.

 
The problem with the china made butterfly knives is the metal in the handles is just to soft of a metal. So even if you replaced the pins, the hole in the handle will just keep getting bigger and more sloppy. Often if you got two or three weeks out of a china made knife your doing good.

For $12 you can get a Taiwan made knife that many people say holds up for two or three years, esp. if you replace the pins. Thanks, JohnR7 www.BalisongKnife.com
 
Nexus, you're right. $120 for a knife just to impress your friends is a lot of money. Go with the cheapie; it'll still impress them...especially when the handle flies off!

If you want a quality made tool that you can use and will last a really long time, look into buying a BM42.

It depends on what YOU want it for.
 
First, when you hear people say that a cheap knife will just fly apart when you're using it... they're absolutely correct. I've sent handles across the room when pins broke... and they all break. And I know you could never justify spending $150 on a knife. I say there's nothing wrong with that. Find out if you like doing it or not first. Get yourself a Jaguar ($25). I haven't owned a jaguar for over a week without busting the pins. If you replace them with finishing nails (instructions at www.balisongxtreme.com), the jaguar will last years with just a little *tweeking* now and again. I practiced on Jaguars for 3 years and I impressed my friends plenty
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Happy flipping!

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~Dave

"One in the hand is worth two in the sheath"
 
If you give me a NIB Jag or China Cheapie, I can make it look like sh!t with several minutes of manipulation. The pins are crap but are easy to fix, I still flip my cheapies but that isn't very often since all my BM's and my new custom bowie Bali-Song get my attention. I am planning on buying some cheapies before I go to college so I won't be out a lot of money if they are taken away. I do like the weight of cheapies but I love the weight and quality of BM/PC/and Bali-Song Cutlery Bali-Songs. They are the best!
Jags and Cheapies aren't horrible, just don't expect a whole lot of actual use out of them, they are great for learning how to manipulate balisongs but suck as a tool, IMHO.

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Cameron

"And shepards we shall be, for thee my Lord for thee, power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command, so we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be, En Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti"
A few of my balisongs
My ClubPhoto albums
 
I second the Jag for starter, even though I don't own one.

I own a PC International skeletonized handle , BM239 and also Taiwan waved rostfrei. From the description, the Jag will be something like BM239 with less solid construction and the blade will be something like the Taiwan rostfrei in edge retention.

Summarizing it up: ok for flipping given the pin replaced, but Zamak handle will break sooner than the new pin, but if you don't really drop it, it should last for years.

My Taiwan wave rostfrei has been with me for 5-6 years and if sharpened properly can be used for shaving (though it needs sharpening more often than my PC International)

I don't have BM42, but comparing with BM239 (Zamak handle), I know it will be heaven to have BM42, unbreakable handle plus a better blade design. Of course the custom is beyond my dream.

I am not poor in my country standard, but with the currency so weakened, I can't afford a BM42 yet.

And Lothar, a nice way of saying it. A knife is a product of art and material, craftmanship counts .. you can feel it if you handle one. There are so many cheap folders here, copied from famed brands. One day I handled an original SOG Stingray, such a beautiful little solid creature! It is like using stainless steel spoon vs disposable plastic one (those cheap copies), while the custom is not unlike the silverware .... All works but the feel is different.

I remember Chuck's review on the Gemini, how the detail counts and how it contribute to the less clank it produced being flipped ..

Get your Jag .. and when time comes, get your BM, Microtech,etc.
Duh, this addiction just won't stop
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[This message has been edited by Chris Anagarika (edited 05-17-2001).]
 
I see its like my example of a basketball jersey, unless its a champion(R) (official brand of the NBA) its not as good (I actually feel that way so I sort of know the feeling).

Oh and what do you guys mean by tool?

But on the more possitive note today is my sixteenth birthday
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and Im looking for a job this weekend and I'm going to spend my first paycheck on a BM42, a jaguar and maybe some kind of other cheapie...its going to take a few weeks but I can manage
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P.S. my mom wont buy me a benchmade
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[This message has been edited by Nexus (edited 05-17-2001).]
 
Give it some time, Nexus. Maybe your balisong phase will pass, leaving you $100 or so in your pocket.

I'd would suggest getting the $8 cheapie first for now. Then if you're still into it 6 months later, maybe it's time to upgrade to the 42? :-)

Best of luck.
~Howdy
 
im of the minority school of thought when it comes to cheapies. i love 'em!
i got a jag, and to tell you the truth, it's not as workable as my cheapies. looks nice, but the handle's too wide for me. however i am very happy with my cheapie, and i havent really had to do much in the way of maintence on it.
this doesnt mean that i'm not a hardcore bali fan, because i have a hole bunch of cuts to prove otherwise
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A good way to define tool (As I see it)
since you asked... and why the 42 is better for that than a cheapie.

A good knife, as a tool, is a solid knife you can use as a pocket-knife without worry. Something that can stand up to some moderately hard usage. Cutting, scraping, carving, slicing. Bear in mind, all tools are made for specific purposes, and to quote CRKT: "A knife is the most expensive and least effective prybar you'll ever own." (one of my favorite quotes... and a plain display of good common sense) So use your knife as a knife, not a prybar, screwdriver, or anything other than what it's designed for. : ) (ANd if you ever use your bali, even a cheapie, to spread peanut butter, I don't wanna even hear about it... the very thought... *shudder*)

A good knife, as a tool, should be able to take, and hold a good, sharp edge. Contrary to "sheeple" philosophy, a sharp knife is much safer, since it takes less force to do the work. If the blade slips, there'll be less force behind it, so anything/anyone in the way won't get nailed as hard, if at all, and besides that, a sharp knife is much easier to control and will make a cleaner, straighter cut.

In addition, one of the nice things about a bali is that it has no locking mechanism to break that would enable it to close on your fingers when you're trying to pull the blade out of something you got it stuck in, or whatever else could put you in a position where it could close on you (sounds weird, but it happens).

Geometrically, a triangle is the simplest structure that is stable, and the closer to equilateral (same length) the sides are, the more stable, and the stronger a structure it will be. If you look at the three pins, (the two pivot pins, and the tang pin) they form just that kind of triangle,(or damn near) meaning the blade is held more solidly and securely than that of a typical folding pocket knife, whether it's a lockback, linerlock, or whatever, which uses only ONE pin. That's the other advantage of having good, strong, solid pins. If you have to bear down to make a cut, with a 42 you should have no worries that either of the titanium pins is gonna give out on you. With a cheapie... I'd just have to go find a different knife if I needed to actually use it as a knife, and not just as something to play with (though balis are great for that, too
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)
 
Cheapie handle feels flat on my hand. Jag (if it is truly copy of BM) should feel better .. to me at least.

Nexus, I agree with Cpt Howdy, get your Jag first. You can buy your BM later on if you still love bali after the butterfly bites you ..
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BTW, Chuck uses his BM69 (tanto) to spread butter .. if you ever visit his studio
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I use mine (balis, not BM) to shave, cut paper, cut people
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...

[This message has been edited by Chris Anagarika (edited 05-18-2001).]
 
"Give it some time, Nexus. Maybe your balisong phase will pass, leaving you $100 or so in your pocket. " Uh, actually, for me, I've tried letting time pass, but my obsession with edged weapons has remained strong. Sure, there have been times when it's subsided a bit, but lately I've felt it coming back with a vengeance! When I got my BM42s, I was hooked for sure! I also have a Buckmaster 184 that I LOVE! Now I'm looking for a quality Katana that won't completely drain my account! (I'm considering Paul Chen's practical Katana; if any of you reading this happen to know anything about it, email me!!!)

Anyway, to respond to Nexus's post: since you are young, go ahead and get a jag or cheaper bali to start with. You will most likely get hooked, and will want more bali's. When you do finally get your hands on a REAL, quality knife, such as the venerable BM42, you will understand what the big deal is about it. If not, then you aren't the type of person who should spend any money on anything of "quality." Some people just don't appreciate quality, however, most of the people on this forum do. I don't enjoy Mercedes and Ferrari's simply because they are expensive; (although they are status symbols, and that is a part of it!) the main reason is the quality of the materials used, the care and craftsmanship that goes into them, which ultimately results in an incomparably finer product. The same is true for everything, as well as with knives. Benchmade has been making knives for a long time, and they know what they're doing, as well as what materials to use. Real people work on these, whereas with the jags and cheapies are just processed by machines as if they were paperclips or something.
Basically, my point is that the people here, myself included, don't buy things (knives, at least) just to brag about them or because we're arrogant. It is because we understand and appreciate the effort, time, and quality materials which result in a far superior product.

Good luck, and have fun!
Strati
 
artwlfdog,
a jaguar *is* a cheapie.

nexus,
man, i'd love a BM 42 (and may have my hands on one soon by a twist of fortune), but i also don't mind the extra maintenance required to keep my jaguar ($20) in working shape. my advice as a fellow young knife enthusiast is to go with the inexpensive step first, and then possibly upgrade later.
adios, man.

aleX.


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sharp blades are friendlier than sharp tongues.
 
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