source for L6

M

M Wadel

Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
801
hi i would like to know who makes/sells l6?
and, who makes it in europe?
whats the estimated price.
 
i looked it up and found they all differ.. i was going to make swords with it so now im wondering which of these would make the best choice?

didnt find any L6 at cartech, and crucibles site was not availible today

however i did find L6 at admiral and timken latrobe and some similar steels at uddeholm.

i looked at a chart on the web and found L6:
C 0.7-0.9 Mn 0.65 Si 0.25 Cr 0.03-0.76 Ni 1.4-2.6 Mo 0.25 V 0.25

admiral C 0.75 Mn 0.70 Si 0.25 Cr 0.80 Ni 1.50 Mo 0.30

timken C 0.70 Mn 0.60 Si 0.25 Cr 0.70 Ni 1.40

Uddeholm had some that were supposed to be similar to L6
Grane C 0.55 Mn 0.50 Si 0.30 Cr 1.0 Ni 3.0 Mo 0.30 max hardness before tempering 58+-2, after 56

Alvar14 C 0.55 Mn 0.70 Si 0.30 Cr 1.1 Ni 1.70 Mo 0.50 V 0.1 max hardness before temp 58, after 54

Calmax C 0.60 Mn 0.80 Si 0.35 Cr 4.50 Ni none Mo 0.50 V 0.20
max hardness before tempering is 64, after 58+-2, labelled as very tough

which of these would do best u guys think my, biggest concern is the C going from 0.75 to 0.55..


now i found some figures at crucible here they come
C 0.75 Mn 0.70 Si 0.25 Cr 0.80 Ni 1.50 Mo 0.30 its identical to admirals version.
what im looking for is the toughest of these
 
Carpenter's L6 is called "R.D.S" and Crucible's is "Champaloy." Admiral lists Crucible's chemistry for their L6 but tests by some knifemakers here have show that it's not the same L6 as Crucible's.

Honestly I think they are all similar in toughness, at least close enough that you couldn't tell the difference during use. What is more important is being sure of the chemistry of your L6 so you know what your tempering temps should be.
 
In general it's the nickel in these alloys that makes them tough along with the medium carbon levels .On that basis the Grane should be the toughest.If you do a search here for L-6 you will see many comment s on just how tough the alloy is in actual use . Tougher than L-6 is a moot point I think.I've seen comments on another forum about tests done with L-6 swords made by Howard Clark ,you certainly won't need tougher than that !! Find one that is similar and available in the sizes you need and make your sword.
 
thanks for your inpuy guys. if anyone is interested admirals l6 only comes in 3/16 at most and alvar14 in 150mm (6inch or so!!) round bar. grane and calmax comes in many usable shapes sqare, rectangular and round ,also welding electrodes and related stuff, i think ill get myself a couple of meters calmax and grane :)
 
I did my JS test blade out of Admirals L6 and it past with flying colors, did all the cuttin and sprang back to almost straight after the 90 deg. bend with no edge crack. Check out Howard Clarks video of him trying to destroy a katana made from L6, it's unbelievable :thumbup: Not sure which L6 he uses though.

P.S. I did the JS test twice with the same knife, once at my shop and once at Hank Knickmeyer's shop. I wanted to make sure it would pass before I did it in front of the master :)
 
are you sure mete? i had a look at their site again and saw some comparison chart and the Carmo/Calmax (same steel) rated higher than Grane and they promote it as tough

carmo
http://www.uddeholm-tooling.com/english/files/carmo-english_050606.pdf

and calmax
http://www.uddeholm-tooling.com/ then Products - productfinder - then click the breen box labelled productfinder at the bottom of the page. 4 new empty boxes will appear, just type in calmax in the gradebox. then you will find a downloadable pdf (very tiny text but u can zoom in), on page 7 there is a small chart and according to that one its tougher than grane, only surpassed by "orvar supreme" but that one can only be hardened to 52hrc. i also think its kinda fishy but could it be tougher than grane?
 
I'm having problems accessing the website. However impact figures can be misleading ,there are various tests and sometimes it's difficult to relate to actual use ... There is no doubt at all that nickel significantly increases toughness !!!
 
Try not to differentiate between the L6 material available. None of the steel companies in the US make L6. They buy it on the open market (foreign) and re-sell it. Uddeholm does make Grane, but it is not stocked in the US.
 
Satrang, are you sure about this? I called Carpenter was told that their L6 was both foreign and domestic product, and in fact I could specify USA-only L6 with my order. I seem to remember speaking with a Crucible rep about their L6 as well, which is at least partly domestic.
 
If they buy any domestic product it would all come from another mill like Allegheny. Neither one melts L6 in their facilities.
 
i have some more questions. a bit offtopic but still. is L6 suitable for hamons being an oilhardening steel :jerkit: , or is a waterhardening steel better like 10xx for hamons, also i read "the bend" goes the wrong way when quenching in oil, could the quenchwater be heated to 60-70°C or so to make it similar to oil character (to make it cool slower) or would i lose the bend doing this too
if anybody knows any good steel for hamons, that bends please let me know
or should i say which steels are appropriate for hamons? what characteristics am i looking for
 
I really don’t’ mean to take exception with any points so far presented but my experience has been so different from some of those points, that I had to make some phone calls to be certain I wasn’t crazy.

I have just spoken with two different representatives of Crucible steel to get a better handle on this source and chemistry issue. Although I have heard second hand that Carpenter is buying L6 from foreign sources, I cannot speak with any certainty to that without taking the same steps I have with Crucible.

Crucible steel, being a global company, does indeed have Champalloy (L6) made in Slovenia*, but I got the distinct impression that they take great exception to the idea that any chemistry is interchangeable. Both individuals that I spoke to insured me that Crucible has specs set down in their chemistry that must be met or the steel is rejected. As Mete has often pointed out these specs are based on a narrow range as opposed to exact numbers, but that range is narrow enough not to cause problems, and if entire elements are omitted or added the steel simply would not meet the specified chemistry. None of this is any different than if Crucible was making every batch themselves right here at home.

For many, many, years now I have worked with different L6 alloys, and each has its own distinct properties, suggesting strongly to me a different chemistry just as the spec sheets show. Of all the different steels I have worked with, Champalloy L6 has been the most unique and consistent in its behavioral characteristics. Yesterday I welded up a billet that incorporated the version of L6 that Admiral is selling because it does not air harden like Champalloy, and I needed that property at the time. Now I must say this is but one batch from Admiral, and I have not worked with it enough to make a confident generalization, but this stuff does heat treat the same as Champalloy.

A vast number of steels we use today are of foreign origin, but when I put my personal experience together with the information from Crucible themselves, I must discard the concept of some foreign pile of generic L6 that all the companies dip out of, eliminating any need to differentiate between them. We can be thankful to the big boys in industry for this, if knifemakers buying a few pounds here or there were the only L6 consumers, suppliers may not worry about using any chemistry that came along, but when a larger corporation is using Champalloy for is particular chemistry, and suddenly they get major tonnage of steel that doesn’t work anymore, some pretty unsavory material is going to hit the fan.

I wished we still had a steel industry to speak of in the U.S., I wished simpler steel was still as popular and not being phased out in favor of specialized alloys, but I guess the world doesn’t cater to the needs knifemakers, so we just have to put our trust in the standards and specifications of the suppliers, and so far Crucible has been reliable for me (as well as Carpenter in the past, I just haven’t used them as much).

*I orginally mentioned Japan after reading the wrong sheet, acutal Certification sheets I have received from Crucible shows the country of origin as Slovenia.
 
Kevin, here is the specification. ASTM A-681. It's the generic specification used for purchasing all commodity materials on the open market, whether it is L6, A2, D2, etc. The specification covers chemistry ranges (fairly broad), annealed hardness, and the finish and size requirements. Nearly 90% of all tool steels are produced overseas. The reason you see subtle differences in material is different mills float within the ranges of ASTM-681. If Crucible has a specification outside of A-681, I'd be very surprised and would like to see proof of that. The end fact is, they don't make it and they don't control making it.
 
I've used A BUNCH of the Admiral L6 and had have excellent results with it.

It has an odd characteristic to it that I have not seen so far in other steels.....the steel show an odd grain structure when you work it....especially seen when moving up to finer grits like 220 or so. It becomes very evident at a hardening line...the hamon will show a feathering effect.

I recently forged a small hunter and this odd grain showed before the HT....and followed all the curves of the forging....and compressed and flowed into the tang...like you would see with a forged damascus tang.

I had a smith look at one of my Admiral L6 blades once, it was near mirror polish, and he could see the grain above the quench line like I mentioned...he seemed to think it could be thermal cycled out...however, I disagreed, all the Admiral L6 I've used shows this....not matter the HT.

Anybody explain what I see?:confused:
 
L6 like many of the low alloy materials is prone to segregation. You are probably seeing residual alloy segregation areas that create variations in structure. Overall, it is cosmetic and it's origins are all the way back to the steel solidifying in the ingot. If you want to see this even more dramatically, look at a piece of S series steel like S7.
 
Satrang said:
Kevin, here is the specification. ASTM A-681. It's the generic specification used for purchasing all commodity materials on the open market, whether it is L6, A2, D2, etc. The specification covers chemistry ranges (fairly broad), annealed hardness, and the finish and size requirements. Nearly 90% of all tool steels are produced overseas. The reason you see subtle differences in material is different mills float within the ranges of ASTM-681. If Crucible has a specification outside of A-681, I'd be very surprised and would like to see proof of that. The end fact is, they don't make it and they don't control making it.
Click to expand...

And ASTM A681-94 is indeed listed in the notes of the pages I have received, and you have no argument from me on the source, as I mentioned, Crucible comfirms that the steel comes from abroad. In fact I see now that you seem to be saying the same thing just in a different way that threw me for a bit. As for meeting the specs I am but the messenger relaying what those folks told me, I will present your point to them and see what they say.

We are now on the same page that different mills produce different chemistry and can still call it L6, O1 D2 etc... that is a given that you are correct in pointing out, and that is also the basis of my point that there is not one chemistry for all steel labled L6 and one supplier can offer a significantly different run from a different mill or even the same one for that matter. The opposite position (which I doubt either of us are taking) is that there is one mill on the planet making all the L6 with the exact same same chemistry, time after time, as opposed to the broad range that you have pointed to. The thing that should really surprise us is that the suppliers can offer a product that is as consistant as it is, over any period of time.
 
We are on the same page. There is no one supplier. What there is is very few suppliers. L6 is one of those grades that the volume has become so little that just getting enough volume for a heat is difficult. What has happened over the years is Crucible quits making it, Latrobe quits, Carpenter quits and what is left is everyone putting their small demand onto 2-3 sources. They are also forced to buy quite a bit of material just to get the volume up. L6 is one of those grades that has fallen victim to tooling makers going away from it due to vacuum heat treatment being primary and oil hardening in general going away. When I say oil hardening its the batch heat treating not the high volume stuff done on carbon steel parts, etc.
 
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