Southern Grind 14c28n?

[glocker199]

What's up with the use of 14c28n on the Southern Grind Bad Monkey? Everything else in the knife are high end materials like titanium and carbon fiber, but the blade steel is more what I'd expect on a $50 knife, not one that costs $250.

 

[marthinus]

Nothing wrong with 14C28N if heat treated correctly.

I would rather take 14C28N heat treated perfectly than S90V or M390 with a 'secret heat treat or magic heat treat' .

 

[glocker199]

Nothing wrong with 14C28N if heat treated correctly.

I would rather take 14C28N heat treated perfectly than S90V or M390 with a 'secret heat treat or magic heat treat' .

Even with the best heat treat, it's not comparable to S90V or M390. There's "nothing wrong" with it on a $45 Kershaw Skyline, but I would sure expect more on knife in that price range.

 

[C_Becker]

People pay much larger amounts of money for a 440B Randall knife. So if you like the knife, go ahead and buy it. 14C28 is a decent steel, its not like its some 420 surgical steel.
I actually like it a lot - it takes a very nice edge, has decent edge retention and is easy to sharpen even with "field methods"

 

[Scurvy092]

14c28n is a great steel.

The reason why it works for Kershaw so well is because it's a blankable steel. It doesn't have to be machined so that saves a lot on labor costs.

Southern grind can't stamp out the blades like Kershaw can so they have to machine the steel just like they would any other steel which adds to the cost.

 

[Misanthropia]

Zac Brown is apparently a big fan of Ernie Emerson, so I believe the Bad Monkey was designed along similar lines (including the steel choice). It is a very easy steel to maintain, I have no complaints about it, or about the knife as a whole. Great customer service as well.

 

[Silvanus]

I got the opportunity to handle a few of the models at G6, including the most expensive one with all the CF and Ti. It's a nice knife, but without a better steel I didn't see a $250 knife.

 

[glocker199]

14c28n is a great steel.

The reason why it works for Kershaw so well is because it's a blankable steel. It doesn't have to be machined so that saves a lot on labor costs.

Southern grind can't stamp out the blades like Kershaw can so they have to machine the steel just like they would any other steel which adds to the cost.

So what's the advantage of a company like SG even using it in the first place?

 

[Misanthropia]

So what's the advantage of a company like SG even using it in the first place?

Very corrosion resistant, easy maintenance for the end user. Probably relatively inexpensive for them to purchase in comparison to something like S30V.

The cost of a knife isn't necessarily corollary with the steel. Especially when the intention of the knife is to be easily maintained.

 

[fzla226]

Very corrosion resistant, easy maintenance for the end user. Probably relatively inexpensive for them to purchase in comparison to something like S30V.

The cost of a knife isn't necessarily corollary with the steel. Especially when the intention of the knife is to be easily maintained.

No, but it's perceived value is.

 

[marthinus]

Even with the best heat treat, it's not comparable to S90V or M390. There's "nothing wrong" with it on a $45 Kershaw Skyline, but I would sure expect more on knife in that price range.

Not true. If you have a botch heat treat on S90V or M390 even if the RC value is 61HRC it can still have issues related to its Austenite and Martensite process and a maker "fixes" this with a high temper to desolve retained Austenite and secondary hardening. Yes the HRC could fool people, however, there can be underlying issues with regards to corrosion resistance, brittleness and wear resistance.

That is why people should not be fooled or go on HRC values alone.

Very corrosion resistant, easy maintenance for the end user. Probably relatively inexpensive for them to purchase in comparison to something like S30V.

The cost of a knife isn't necessarily corollary with the steel. Especially when the intention of the knife is to be easily maintained.

Very good points. 14C28N is also a fine carbide steel that has good toughness even at high hardness if done right. Similar to that of AEB-L/13C26 from my understanding.

Here was a test done by a local maker on 14C28N

The kiln takes about 45 mins to stabilise at 1060degC.
Once at temperature the stainless foil package is inserted and timing of the soak cycle is started once the temp is back up at 1060degC, soak time for 4mm thick blade is 12mins.
After 12 mins the envelope is removed with pliers and the blade dipped into the quench oil to get the blade temp down to 600degC within 2 mins for the martensitising to take place. Normally I get the blade to the oil within 4 seconds since the process is well rehearsed and tools ready.

When the blade hits the oil is goes into vapor blanket stage, the oil is boiled into gas around the blade so does not come into contact with the blade, it is important to agitate the oil by raising and lifting the blade. Then, the second the oil stop vaporising around the blade the blade must be kept perfectly still else unnecessary warping will take place. The cue is when you stop hearing boiling bubbles. This takes about 6 seconds depending on blade thickness.

When the blade is out of the oil and you're just able to touch it by bare hand it is checked for warping on a marble slab then gently tapped with a rubber mallet on a wooden block to straighten it. If you wait longer than 5mins the steel will be so hard it will shatter if you try to correct a warp.

From here the blades go to the deep freezer to chill to -20degC. During this time the kiln is cooled down to 175degC for the tempering process, then the blades go in for 2 hours in this case of 14C28n Sandvik. I'm going for a hardness of 60HRC. For 58HRC it will be 225degC for 2 hours and for 56HRC 350degC for two hours.
The blades are now hardened and tempered, all black/grey again so now the final grind can start:

Final grind done, blades all shiny again:

With the final grinding done I started wondering just how tough this new Sandvik steel is. I opted for a rather hard blade at 60HRC, especially for the size of the blades. Puma go as low as 56HRC on their broad bladed knives, remember, the larger the knife the more leverage you have and the harder the steel the more brittle it is. Then I recall Miles telling of a chef's knife he dropped and it broke in two! Now since one of these knives is for Miles I decided to do the chop test to put my mind at ease. I took a 7mm piece of scrap round bar from old burglar proofing and a heavy hammer and marked the spot where I'm about to abuse the blade so I'll know where to look for damage. I proceeded to hammer away at the blade spine with the rod on my cute little anvil:

After the first blow the blade was more than halfway through the 7mm round bar, the blade did not shatter and the cutting edge did not chip:tanks:

Two more blows severed the rod and I checked the blade for damage....NONE, not where the hammer struck nor at the cutting edge, all I could see was a smear of mild steel on the cutting edge.

..and not as much as a dent or mark on the spine where the hammer struck:

I will with confidence split a marrow bone or chop a branch off a tree with this 14C28n chef's knife and at 60HRC it's going to keep a keen edge for a while and more Miles can also shorten table legs in his kitchen if he wishes.

So next up is the sandblasting, stay tuned...

There is a series of tests on youtube on AEB-L ground very thin.

[video=youtube;057CNdALWCA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=057CNdALWCA[/video]

Here is testing of AEB-L in larger blades.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1155729-AEB-L-and-toughness-in-larger-blades

No, but it's perceived value is.

Very good point. Taking into the account the "ruggedly dependable and highly functional" part of their design 14C28N seems an ideal choice. Especially if you take into consideration of what E. Emerson always says (Paraphrasing) A broken knife is not a knife any more, a dull one is still a knife. 14C28N can offer good hardness, thoughness, corrosion resistance and ease of maintenance. My opinion is that they went with the right steel choice for their intended use.

 

[davek14]

Good stuff.

 

[jstrange]

I had one once and it was a really nice knife. I didn't mind the blade steel, but then I didn't use it much either. I notice that they have a pretty cool build your own feature on their site now. It seems that the newer G10 models don't have the "wave" feature which is puzzling. Also they don't allow you to move the clip to left hand carry. Oh, well.

 

[james terrio]

Like AEB-L and 13C26, 14C28N is inexpensive because it's fairly simple chemically, and doesn't need powder metallurgy to keep it clean and fine-grained. That doesn't mean it's "cheap". Likewise, popular non-stainless steels like O1 and 52100 are inexpensive as raw stock, but they make excellent blades... no one argues or complains about that.

I use and enjoy "super steels" too, but if toughness and ease of sharpening along with corrosion-resistance are big priorities, AEB-L/13C26 and 14C28N are very good choices.

 

[fzla226]

Very good point. Taking into the account the "ruggedly dependable and highly functional" part of their design 14C28N seems an ideal choice. Especially if you take into consideration of what E. Emerson always says (Paraphrasing) A broken knife is not a knife any more, a dull one is still a knife. 14C28N can offer good hardness, thoughness, corrosion resistance and ease of maintenance. My opinion is that they went with the right steel choice for their intended use.

The Emerson thing seems weird, since there's a better steel that's more tough, just the CPM version of 154 they use. Same thing with the Bad Monkey. Why not CPM 154, high toughness, and has a high perceived value.

 

[marthinus]

The Emerson thing seems weird, since there's a better steel that's more tough, just the CPM version of 154 they use. Same thing with the Bad Monkey. Why not CPM 154, high toughness, and has a high perceived value.

Emerson uses 154CM. The non CPM version.

I have no experience with CPM154, but do with similar RWL-34, that I absolutely love. I also have no issue with 154CM, but there are some drawbacks that one needs to consider.

154CM can have some large primary carbides percentage and segregation that can influence its toughness. It has a carbide volume of 17.5% according to its datasheet. 13C26/AEB-L that is similar to 14C28N to my understanding and both are considered fine carbide steels has a primary carbide percentage of 2.6%.

To put that into perspective. These are images available from Devin Thomas.

This is 154CM

This is CPM 154. It does not have the carbide segregation, however, the percentage of carbide volume remains the same.

AEB-L

From ZAPP Steel:

 

[AntDog]

Well, with these knives the blade steel would be the least of my concerns...... Dat handle shape! Wow, it actually curves upward toward the end, ya know, against the way most knives (and the human hand) are designed?

Most handles have a curve downward toward the end of the handle. (even if it's just a gentle curve.) It's quite pleasing and very ergonomic. I've found that if a handle is merely completely straight along the back edge it's uncomfortable... (Like the Benchmade Rukus. Sexy, sexy knife, but felt very bricklike, like an unergonomic turd in the hand to me. Loved the Skirmish and they were designed by the same guy. The Skirmish just had that gently arcing, very ergonomic handle whereas the Rukus didn't. The handle on the Rukus was straight, so it felt "dead" to my hand) How about this one that actually curves the opposite direction?

Also, did they license the wave from Emerson? I didn't see anything on their website about it, but I didn't go through all of it.

This is coming from a big time Zac Brown fan. Love the guy. The band, the music, the great causes he gives back to, etc..... But, dem handles...... C'mon mang. And the steel. They shouldn't be using the same shite Kershaw uses in their cheap knives - good heat treat or not.

Just my $.02.

 

[Bigfatts]

Well, with these knives the blade steel would be the least of my concerns...... Dat handle shape! Wow, it actually curves upward toward the end, ya know, against the way most knives (and the human hand) are designed?

Most handles have a curve downward toward the end of the handle. (even if it's just a gentle curve.) It's quite pleasing and very ergonomic. I've found that if a handle is merely completely straight along the back edge it's uncomfortable... (Like the Benchmade Rukus. Sexy, sexy knife, but felt very bricklike, like an unergonomic turd in the hand to me. Loved the Skirmish and they were designed by the same guy. The Skirmish just had that gently arcing, very ergonomic handle whereas the Rukus didn't. The handle on the Rukus was straight, so it felt "dead" to my hand) How about this one that actually curves the opposite direction?

Also, did they license the wave from Emerson? I didn't see anything on their website about it, but I didn't go through all of it.

This is coming from a big time Zac Brown fan. Love the guy. The band, the music, the great causes he gives back to, etc..... But, dem handles...... C'mon mang. And the steel. They shouldn't be using the same shite Kershaw uses in their cheap knives - good heat treat or not.

Just my $.02.

Yes, the Wave is licensed by Emerson, apparently Zac and Emerson are friends. I've been using a BM for quite some time and the handle shape has never bothered me, try and get one in your hands if you can just to see. Probably not an easy thing since there are only a handful of dealers I guess. And I can tell you their Sandvick is a different animal than the 14c28n I've used from Kershaw. It really does perform like a different steel.

 

[AntDog]

Yes, the Wave is licensed by Emerson, apparently Zac and Emerson are friends. I've been using a BM for quite some time and the handle shape has never bothered me, try and get one in your hands if you can just to see. Probably not an easy thing since there are only a handful of dealers I guess. And I can tell you their Sandvick is a different animal than the 14c28n I've used from Kershaw. It really does perform like a different steel.

Very cool that they are friends! I figured it had to be licensed for sure, I just couldn't find anything about it on their site.

I will try to handle one in person. I never have, so I was just guessing as to the ergos.

As far as the steel goes, I know you know what you're talking about, so I'll take your word for it.