Spartan Harsey Lock Bar - No Steel Insert?

Niall88

Niall88

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Hey, calling all you experts out there (I am saying this respectfully!). Just got a Spartan Harsey naked ti 4" in the post today. Appears to be titanium lockbar against the steel blade without a steel insert. Anything you can say to make me feel better about this? Titanium 'carbidized'...what? Also received a Pallas, a friggin masterpiece! Fell in love with it the second I took it out of the box and put it in my hand. I love everything about it. The blade is gorgeous. I really like the NO deep carry pocket clip, as I like to be able to get my hands onto my knives, not dig around for them. The newer ones are S45VN.

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Alright, thank you. I needed to hear your feedback. Ya, I did have the 'program' that the naked ti on steel wears out faster. JD and sailfish, you both don't seem to have any worries about this. Thanks for your feedback.
 
I have and have had numerous titanium frame and liner locks and plenty without lockstick. A lot of time I feel the lock stick is an issue with the finished interface between the lockbar and blade, and not the lock being Ti.

Personally, I think the steel insert and other measures were cost saving so they wouldn't have to deal with spending time on fit and finish/quality control to have tighter tolerances.
 
Locutus D'Borg said:
To me, steel inserts are useless. I've never seen a framelock lock face wear down enough to do anything. BUT it gives makers another "feature" to market. And wouldn't Ti liner locks have the same alleged issue? So why no insert for those but necessary for frame locks?
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Hey.....whoa, whoa, whoa......let's not start throwing rational thought and logic around all willy-nilly.



😁
 
I've never had a Ti framelock (bare Ti) wear to any appreciable difference throughout it's life. In fact, after the first few openings they've always stayed right there in that same spot for me.
 
The advantage of Ti is its strength/weight, not absolute strength. Steel far surpasses Ti alloy in strength. Ti alloy is frequently used--and mostly used--in aircraft applications, because it is much lighter than steel, and stronger than aluminum. But for knives it's pure hype. People are aware of the high cost of Ti-alloy, so they think it must be better for everything. Well, it's not better for everything. A knife is the last place I would spec Ti-alloy.

Pure Ti has no industrial use I'm aware of.

First of all, Ti-alloy can have many different properties depending on heat treating. There are many companies that do nothing but heat treat Ti-alloy for a given application. Out east there is a factory that heat treats Ti-alloy landing gear. That's it! That's all they do. There are even ANSI and ISO standards covering heat-treeating of aircraft Ti-alloy.

But knives have no call for this type of metal except the hype factor. I'll take steel any time, any day over Ti-alloy in a knife, beccause Ti offers zero advantages and big disadvantages, such as it is much softer than steel. Carbon fiber is the same way. It costs about $7/pound. But knife makers sell it for 100x that, or more, without sound reason. In knife applications steel is always better than carbon fiber.

Carbon fiber is stronger than steel pound for pound, but by volume steel is much stronger, and it's strength is all directions, whereas carbon fiber is only strong in tension. Carbon fiber also bonds better to adhesives. Once again, pure hype. Carbon fiber cost is negligent compared to knife fabrication costs, so it shouldn't add much to the cost of a knife, $7.00/pound to be precise.

Ti-alloy for medical-implant applicatios--the most expensive kind--costs about $30/pound. That would add less than $10 to the cost of a knife with Ti handles. Ti is more difficult to machine, but that is because it fouls the tooling, like aluminum does, not because of its hardness compared to steel.

I'll take a knife with stainless steel parts over Ti or carbon fiber, any time, any day!
 
awesome14 said:
The advantage of Ti is its strength/weight, not absolute strength. Steel far surpasses Ti alloy in strength. Ti alloy is frequently used--and mostly used--in aircraft applications, because it is much lighter than steel, and stronger than aluminum. But for knives it's pure hype. People are aware of the high cost of Ti-alloy, so they think it must be better for everything. Well, it's not better for everything. A knife is the last place I would spec Ti-alloy.

Pure Ti has no industrial use I'm aware of.

First of all, Ti-alloy can have many different properties depending on heat treating. There are many companies that do nothing but heat treat Ti-alloy for a given application. Out east there is a factory that heat treats Ti-alloy landing gear. That's it! That's all they do. There are even ANSI and ISO standards covering heat-treeating of aircraft Ti-alloy.

But knives have no call for this type of metal except the hype factor. I'll take steel any time, any day over Ti-alloy in a knife, beccause Ti offers zero advantages and big disadvantages, such as it is much softer than steel. Carbon fiber is the same way. It costs about $7/pound. But knife makers sell it for 100x that, or more, without sound reason. In knife applications steel is always better than carbon fiber.

Carbon fiber is stronger than steel pound for pound, but by volume steel is much stronger, and it's strength is all directions, whereas carbon fiber is only strong in tension. Carbon fiber also bonds better to adhesives. Once again, pure hype. Carbon fiber cost is negligent compared to knife fabrication costs, so it shouldn't add much to the cost of a knife, $7.00/pound to be precise.

Ti-alloy for medical-implant applicatios--the most expensive kind--costs about $30/pound. That would add less than $10 to the cost of a knife with Ti handles. Ti is more difficult to machine, but that is because it fouls the tooling, like aluminum does, not because of its hardness compared to steel.

I'll take a knife with stainless steel parts over Ti or carbon fiber, any time, any day!
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There are perfectly valid, and even advantageous reasons to use titanium (and carbon fiber) over steel in knives.
 
awesome14 said:
The advantage of Ti is its strength/weight, not absolute strength. Steel far surpasses Ti alloy in strength. Ti alloy is frequently used--and mostly used--in aircraft applications, because it is much lighter than steel, and stronger than aluminum. But for knives it's pure hype. People are aware of the high cost of Ti-alloy, so they think it must be better for everything. Well, it's not better for everything. A knife is the last place I would spec Ti-alloy.

Pure Ti has no industrial use I'm aware of.

First of all, Ti-alloy can have many different properties depending on heat treating. There are many companies that do nothing but heat treat Ti-alloy for a given application. Out east there is a factory that heat treats Ti-alloy landing gear. That's it! That's all they do. There are even ANSI and ISO standards covering heat-treeating of aircraft Ti-alloy.

But knives have no call for this type of metal except the hype factor. I'll take steel any time, any day over Ti-alloy in a knife, beccause Ti offers zero advantages and big disadvantages, such as it is much softer than steel. Carbon fiber is the same way. It costs about $7/pound. But knife makers sell it for 100x that, or more, without sound reason. In knife applications steel is always better than carbon fiber.

Carbon fiber is stronger than steel pound for pound, but by volume steel is much stronger, and it's strength is all directions, whereas carbon fiber is only strong in tension. Carbon fiber also bonds better to adhesives. Once again, pure hype. Carbon fiber cost is negligent compared to knife fabrication costs, so it shouldn't add much to the cost of a knife, $7.00/pound to be precise.

Ti-alloy for medical-implant applicatios--the most expensive kind--costs about $30/pound. That would add less than $10 to the cost of a knife with Ti handles. Ti is more difficult to machine, but that is because it fouls the tooling, like aluminum does, not because of its hardness compared to steel.

I'll take a knife with stainless steel parts over Ti or carbon fiber, any time, any day!
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I've often thought this also. I've got some stainless framelock that I believe are much stronger than their Ti counterparts. The mainstream knife world is a confusing one full of marketing that many dont see. Even still though I love me some Ti scales.

Edit: This is just about stainless vs titanium framelocks. Of course different materials work better or worse for different use situations. However when I pick up something like my Real Steel G3 Pukko that has a stainless steel framelock with the innards heavily milled out, sometimes I wonder why I spend so much hard earned money on some of the Ti framelocks.
 
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LimpCroissant said:
I've never had a Ti framelock (bare Ti) wear to any appreciable difference throughout it's life. In fact, after the first few openings they've always stayed right there in that same spot for me.
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And you won't. If I remember right, titanium carbide is > 80 HRC. If you observe your knife carefully, you'll see the blade tang wear, not the lock bar.
 
awesome14 said:
The advantage of Ti is its strength/weight, not absolute strength. Steel far surpasses Ti alloy in strength. Ti alloy is frequently used--and mostly used--in aircraft applications, because it is much lighter than steel, and stronger than aluminum. But for knives it's pure hype. People are aware of the high cost of Ti-alloy, so they think it must be better for everything. Well, it's not better for everything. A knife is the last place I would spec Ti-alloy.

Pure Ti has no industrial use I'm aware of.

First of all, Ti-alloy can have many different properties depending on heat treating. There are many companies that do nothing but heat treat Ti-alloy for a given application. Out east there is a factory that heat treats Ti-alloy landing gear. That's it! That's all they do. There are even ANSI and ISO standards covering heat-treeating of aircraft Ti-alloy.

But knives have no call for this type of metal except the hype factor. I'll take steel any time, any day over Ti-alloy in a knife, beccause Ti offers zero advantages and big disadvantages, such as it is much softer than steel. Carbon fiber is the same way. It costs about $7/pound. But knife makers sell it for 100x that, or more, without sound reason. In knife applications steel is always better than carbon fiber.

Carbon fiber is stronger than steel pound for pound, but by volume steel is much stronger, and it's strength is all directions, whereas carbon fiber is only strong in tension. Carbon fiber also bonds better to adhesives. Once again, pure hype. Carbon fiber cost is negligent compared to knife fabrication costs, so it shouldn't add much to the cost of a knife, $7.00/pound to be precise.

Ti-alloy for medical-implant applicatios--the most expensive kind--costs about $30/pound. That would add less than $10 to the cost of a knife with Ti handles. Ti is more difficult to machine, but that is because it fouls the tooling, like aluminum does, not because of its hardness compared to steel.

I'll take a knife with stainless steel parts over Ti or carbon fiber, any time, any day!
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Yeah I'll have to disagree on this. When Chris Reeve created the Sebenza (early 90's I believe) and in doing so invented the Reeve Integral Lock, aka frame lock, an all steel handle in that thickness would be very heavy. Aluminum lacked the strength for the lock, so he used titanium.

In many things, like knife handles, carbon fiber is often just for looks, and is a laminate with G10 over steel or titanium liners. However, on knives like my Cheburkov Strizh and A Purvis Progeny have linerless CF handles, which makes them extremely lightweight, some I value in a folder.

I'm not a huge fan if framelocks myself, or metal handles in general.

Your post once again sounds like you complaining that knives with these features are too expensive for you and therefore must be overpriced and worthless. That's pretty much been your narrative.

Some for sure are overpriced. However, cost of materials does not equal what sales cost should be. Yes, popularity and brand name can inflate prices. The price for a pair of Air Jordan's is almost all profit. Made in countries with factories that pay laborers next to nothing, mostly synthetic materials. Yet people (not me, not for a long time) still shell out $200 for a pair, every year.
 
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Surprised there was no mention of memory.
Steel has no where near the memory retention of Titanium.
Every frame lock I've owned that had steel lock bars would always bend too far one way or the other eventually.
They are always thinner also, likely to reduce weight but at the sacrifice of durability compared to thicker, lighter titanium.
I do believe there is a reason materials are used outside of marketing or hype most times.
 
awesome14 said:
The advantage of Ti is its strength/weight, not absolute strength. Steel far surpasses Ti alloy in strength. Ti alloy is frequently used--and mostly used--in aircraft applications, because it is much lighter than steel, and stronger than aluminum. But for knives it's pure hype. People are aware of the high cost of Ti-alloy, so they think it must be better for everything. Well, it's not better for everything. A knife is the last place I would spec Ti-alloy.

Pure Ti has no industrial use I'm aware of.

First of all, Ti-alloy can have many different properties depending on heat treating. There are many companies that do nothing but heat treat Ti-alloy for a given application. Out east there is a factory that heat treats Ti-alloy landing gear. That's it! That's all they do. There are even ANSI and ISO standards covering heat-treeating of aircraft Ti-alloy.

But knives have no call for this type of metal except the hype factor. I'll take steel any time, any day over Ti-alloy in a knife, beccause Ti offers zero advantages and big disadvantages, such as it is much softer than steel. Carbon fiber is the same way. It costs about $7/pound. But knife makers sell it for 100x that, or more, without sound reason. In knife applications steel is always better than carbon fiber.

Carbon fiber is stronger than steel pound for pound, but by volume steel is much stronger, and it's strength is all directions, whereas carbon fiber is only strong in tension. Carbon fiber also bonds better to adhesives. Once again, pure hype. Carbon fiber cost is negligent compared to knife fabrication costs, so it shouldn't add much to the cost of a knife, $7.00/pound to be precise.

Ti-alloy for medical-implant applicatios--the most expensive kind--costs about $30/pound. That would add less than $10 to the cost of a knife with Ti handles. Ti is more difficult to machine, but that is because it fouls the tooling, like aluminum does, not because of its hardness compared to steel.

I'll take a knife with stainless steel parts over Ti or carbon fiber, any time, any day!
Click to expand...

LOL This is such a hilariously hot garbage take. I love it.
 
Niall88 said:
Hey, calling all you experts out there (I am saying this respectfully!). Just got a Spartan Harsey naked ti 4" in the post today. Appears to be titanium lockbar against the steel blade without a steel insert. Anything you can say to make me feel better about this? Titanium 'carbidized'...what? Also received a Pallas, a friggin masterpiece! Fell in love with it the second I took it out of the box and put it in my hand. I love everything about it. The blade is gorgeous. I really like the NO deep carry pocket clip, as I like to be able to get my hands onto my knives, not dig around for them. The newer ones are S45VN.

View attachment 1928708
Click to expand...
Just throwing this out there but the picture is a Spartan Pallas
 
awesome14 said:
The advantage of Ti is its strength/weight, not absolute strength. Steel far surpasses Ti alloy in strength. Ti alloy is frequently used--and mostly used--in aircraft applications, because it is much lighter than steel, and stronger than aluminum. But for knives it's pure hype. People are aware of the high cost of Ti-alloy, so they think it must be better for everything. Well, it's not better for everything. A knife is the last place I would spec Ti-alloy.

Pure Ti has no industrial use I'm aware of.

First of all, Ti-alloy can have many different properties depending on heat treating. There are many companies that do nothing but heat treat Ti-alloy for a given application. Out east there is a factory that heat treats Ti-alloy landing gear. That's it! That's all they do. There are even ANSI and ISO standards covering heat-treeating of aircraft Ti-alloy.

But knives have no call for this type of metal except the hype factor. I'll take steel any time, any day over Ti-alloy in a knife, beccause Ti offers zero advantages and big disadvantages, such as it is much softer than steel. Carbon fiber is the same way. It costs about $7/pound. But knife makers sell it for 100x that, or more, without sound reason. In knife applications steel is always better than carbon fiber.

Carbon fiber is stronger than steel pound for pound, but by volume steel is much stronger, and it's strength is all directions, whereas carbon fiber is only strong in tension. Carbon fiber also bonds better to adhesives. Once again, pure hype. Carbon fiber cost is negligent compared to knife fabrication costs, so it shouldn't add much to the cost of a knife, $7.00/pound to be precise.

Ti-alloy for medical-implant applicatios--the most expensive kind--costs about $30/pound. That would add less than $10 to the cost of a knife with Ti handles. Ti is more difficult to machine, but that is because it fouls the tooling, like aluminum does, not because of its hardness compared to steel.

I'll take a knife with stainless steel parts over Ti or carbon fiber, any time, any day!
Click to expand...
This opinion is validated by the widespread, pervasive failures of all knives made with Titanium and Carbon Fiber. It’s been all downhill since we stopped using bone handles and flint blades…
 
Quiet said:
LOL This is such a hilariously hot garbage take. I love it.
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I think we've found a new troll to play with. This one might have pink hair.

This thread actually convinced me to carry one of my framelocks. ZT 0095BLK CPM-S90V. The steel is definitely worth it.
 
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