Speculators, Sprints and Telling Others What to Do

[pinetreebbs]

I posted this on the Spyderco Forum.

I see a lot of posts about speculators buying sprint run knives and selling them for a profit. Honestly, I don't think that many are being bought for resale. Think about it, lets say there is a sprint run of 600 knives, they all sell out. You might see twenty, thirty, even fifty, sold on eBay. That is not even 10% of the sprint run. They might go for more than MSRP, but that is what those twenty to fifty folks are willing to pay. That said, what about the other 550 other knives sold by dealers and SFO? They are sold, probably, mostly by most dealers below the MSRP. So at least 90% percent of the sprint run is sold at or below the MSRP. What is wrong with that?

Now when the buyers bid up the price it is sensational. It makes me ask why they would be willing to spend so much for a particular knife. It doesn't make me think they should not be able to spend that kind of money. Nor do I think it was wrong for the seller to sell the knife. They bought it and they can sell it as they please, just like the buyers can buy it or not.

There are dealers that sell below, at or above the MSRP. Local brick and mortar stores, Internet sellers, even eBay "buy it now" sellers. It is their prerogative to do so and if we want the knife they have we will pay their price.

The marketplace will set the price, charge too much, no one buys, too low and you are out of business when you can't cover your costs and pay for your inventory.

A while back some people were paying more than $300 for the Blue Sprint run Manix. One recently listed on eBay got no bids at $225. Eventually things even out.

What about a family selling off the collection of a relative, should they be forced to sell rare examples for a discount or market value?

If you trade a knife should the trade value be based on the rarity and condition of the knife or the original MSRP?

Sentimental value aside, anything we own is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for the item.

People on this forum and others are gracious enough to tell anyone interested how to go about buying Spyderco sprint runs. A big Thank You to all of them. I had to work a little and spend some money, but it was well worth the effort.

A huge Thank You to the dealers that put out dealer only variations and pre-orders. My hat is off to them for taking the time, trouble and money to do them. I know they take a beating when someone misses out, changes their mind or agrees to buy a knife and never follows through. They also put up with a constant stream of, "Is my knife ready yet?" calls and emails. All that admistriva take up their time and time is money.

Finally, a huge Thank You to Spyderco for the opportunity to own what I consider the best knife, from the best materials. I back up that opinion by, looking over my shoulder for my wife, buying as many Spydercos as I can.

 

[RevDevil]

Great post

 

[neuron]

I said it over on the Spyderco forum, and I'll say it here too: Excellent post. I agree completely with what you said. :thumbup:

 

[singularity35]

You seem to conveniently forget the fact that Sal asked for ideas. Maybe Sal thinks that things could be better.

 

[RevDevil]

SteelHead Club FTW!

 

[pinetreebbs]

You seem to conveniently forget the fact that Sal asked for ideas. Maybe Sal thinks that things could be better.

I think Sal would prefer having all the facts from all sides. I am not sayings things cannot be improved, just pointing what is working well. Those that are unsatisfied tend to be heard from more (louder) than those that are quite happy. By looking at all sides of an issue there will be better understanding. I was also trying to address the so called speculators in a factual way.

 

[singularity35]

I think Sal would prefer having all the facts from all sides. I am not sayings things cannot be improved, just pointing what is working well. Those that are unsatisfied tend to be heard from more (louder) than those that are quite happy. By looking at all sides of an issue there will be better understanding. I was also trying to address the so called speculators in a factual way.

Of course! This is only natural because the desire is there to improve the situation.

 

[chriiis]

I think Sal would prefer having all the facts from all sides. I am not sayings things cannot be improved, just pointing what is working well. Those that are unsatisfied tend to be heard from more (louder) than those that are quite happy. By looking at all sides of an issue there will be better understanding. I was also trying to address the so called speculators in a factual way.

I'm sure Mr. Glesser will appreciate your input, but solicited suggestions aren't the same as "telling others what to do". I think some of us just want to clear up the perception that people are "demanding" change when people are merely optimistic at the chance for possible change.

 

[singularity35]

I'm sure Mr. Glesser will appreciate your input, but solicited suggestions aren't the same as "telling others what to do". I think some of us just want to clear up the perception that people are "demanding" change when people are merely optimistic at the chance for possible change.

Well said. Much better than I ever could.

 

[pinetreebbs]

I'm sure Mr. Glesser will appreciate your input, but solicited suggestions aren't the same as "telling others what to do". I think some of us just want to clear up the perception that people are "demanding" change when people are merely optimistic at the chance for possible change.

I started this as a separate topic, not a direct response to Sal's request. I wanted to have a factual discussion of about speculators, the other side of sprint runs and the tendency for some posters to want to tell other knife buyers how they should buy and use/not use their knives. Out of that discussion I hope something useful will come to Sal.

 

[chriiis]

I started this as a separate topic, not a direct response to Sal's request.

Seems a bit awkward to start a new thread in which things will have to be re-iterated again, but I suppose it's a lot better than having the suggestions that were asked for being buried in faction warring. I definitely approve of this.

I wanted to have a factual discussion of about speculators

I'd argue that it's impossible to be 100% factual about what goes on with speculators unless we have one present.

the tendency for some posters to want to tell other knife buyers how they should buy and use/not use their knives.

Once again I'm convinced this is more a misinterpretation of what some people have been vocal about. I see a lot of frustration over inability to obtain knives presumably due to the class of buyers that don't seem to actually care about them, but I also see people understanding that it is an attractive and relatively lucrative side business for folks. They don't agree with the mentality but I don't think anyone thinks being vocal about it will stop it, even if sprint runs were somehow altered.

 

[singularity35]

Once again I'm convinced this is more a misinterpretation of what some people have been vocal about. I see a lot of frustration over inability to obtain knives presumably due to the class of buyers that don't seem to actually care about them, but I also see people understanding that it is an attractive and relatively lucrative side business for folks. They don't agree with the mentality but I don't think anyone thinks being vocal about it will stop it, even if sprint runs were somehow altered.

Deliberate misinterpretation most likely. So as to manufacture an issue against the people hoping for some change.

 

[neuron]

Deliberate misinterpretation most likely. So as to manufacture an issue against the people hoping for some change.

Come on, now, no need to interpret everything as a conspiracy against change. Even leaving aside the issue of speculators, the OP has a good point about "telling others what to do" with regard to some of the denigrating remarks about "collectors" -- seemingly meant, in this context, to be contrasted with "users" -- in the thread over on the Spyderco forum. If someone's enjoyment of knives comes primarily from keeping pristine, never-used models in his safe and/or viewing them as an investment that will hold (or increase in) value, then IMHO he should be free to do so. It's not my thing personally, but who am I to tell someone else that his way of using/enjoying his property is the "wrong" way just because it differs from my own?

I know you've seen my posts here and over on the other forum, so you should know by now that I'm squarely in the camp of folks who are interested in these sprints primarily because we enjoy using new/high-performance steels and that I'm in favor of increasing production on sprints of the high-demand models (Para 2, Military, Manix 2). I just think that we need to be careful that, in the process of setting out the case for change to the current sprint system, we also don't end up also trying to legislate what is and isn't an acceptable way for someone to use a knife that he, just like everyone else, paid for out of his own earnings. And this, I take it, is the main thing the OP was getting at in his cautionary remarks about "telling others what to do".

 

[singularity35]

Come on, now, no need to interpret everything as a conspiracy against change. Even leaving aside the issue of speculators, the OP has a good point about "telling others what to do" with regard to some of the denigrating remarks about "collectors" -- seemingly meant, in this context, to be contrasted with "users" -- in the thread over on the Spyderco forum. If someone's enjoyment of knives comes primarily from keeping pristine, never-used models in his safe and/or viewing them as an investment that will hold (or increase in) value, then IMHO he should be free to do so. It's not my thing personally, but who am I to tell someone else that his way of using/enjoying his property is the "wrong" way just because it differs from my own?

I know you've seen my posts here and over on the other forum, so you should know by now that I'm squarely in the camp of folks who are interested in these sprints primarily because we enjoy using new/high-performance steels and that I'm in favor of increasing production on sprints of the high-demand models (Para 2, Military, Manix 2). I just think that we need to be careful that, in the process of setting out the case for change to the current sprint system, we also don't end up also trying to legislate what is and isn't an acceptable way for someone to use a knife that he, just like everyone else, paid for out of his own earnings. And this, I take it, is the main thing the OP was getting at in his cautionary remarks about "telling others what to do".

Hehehehe, I just knew someone was going to tell me I was saying conspiracy. Of course not because it's only one guy who keeps repeating that people are telling him what to do. This in spite of being told several times that nobody is telling him what to do.

 

[neuron]

Hehehehe, I just knew someone was going to tell me I was saying conspiracy. Of course not because it's only one guy who keeps repeating that people are telling him what to do. This in spite of being told several times that nobody is telling him what to do.

So, basically, you're telling him what to think instead of what to do?

(I kid, I kid...)

 

[l2lku2]

Speculators take advantage of the limited supply in two ways - some buyers think they will never get the knife, some aren't willing to wait.

Solve or alleviate the problem by making the sprint runs in much larger numbers or by repeating the sprint runs periodically (either as standard practice or advertising that it will be repeated) so that buyers won't think that they will never be able to get the knife unless they bought THAT ONE that is available NOW from the speculator.

There will always be those that want it NOW and will pay for getting it NOW but that is a personal issue, not one of supply and demand.

 

[singularity35]

So, basically, you're telling him what to think instead of what to do?

(I kid, I kid...)

LOL. He can think what he wants but the fact is no one is "telling him what to do". Nor can anyone presume to do that.

We can only post what we hope to happen but it looks like status quo is gonna be the result of all this. Just a matter of who screamed loudest and longest.

 

[DallasSTB]

...If you trade a knife should the trade value be based on the rarity and condition of the knife or the original MSRP?..

This little question didn't get much discussion, but I think it is interesting. My thoughts are that the trade value should be based on the perceived "street value" of the knife. The market will determine if that is appropriate, but I have seen some potential traders get quite irate if a potential seller/trader sets a high trade value on a particular knife initially.

 

[The Deacon]

Honestly, I don't think that many are being bought for resale. Think about it, lets say there is a sprint run of 600 knives, they all sell out. You might see twenty, thirty, even fifty, sold on eBay. That is not even 10% of the sprint run. They might go for more than MSRP, but that is what those twenty to fifty folks are willing to pay.

I honestly don't think that, for any given Sprint Run, there are more than twenty, thirty, or possibly fifty people lamenting the fact they could not get one without paying an exorbitant price to someone who purchased it with no intention of either using it or keeping it. I feel no sympathy for those who expect to find things at bargain basement prices, but I can understand feeling resentment towards those who merely want to line their pockets.

To me, it comes down to the fact that Sal has acknowledged that the delivery system for Sprint Runs is less than ideal, told us that estimating run size is an inexact science, even for someone with his 30 years experience in the knife business, and asked for suggestions. To some of us, one thing that would help, would be to find a way to reduce the incentive to purchase strictly for short-term profit without creating any unnecessary work or risk for Spyderco and their dealers. Changing the format from "there will only ever be NNN" to "The initial run will be NNN pieces, but we reserve the right to produce more if demand warrants" might be one way to accomplish that. It's not telling anyone what they can, or can't do, just shifting the odds and making it more of a gamble for them to do it.

 

[RevDevil]

I honestly don't think that, for any given Sprint Run, there are more than twenty, thirty, or possibly fifty people lamenting the fact they could not get one without paying an exorbitant price to someone who purchased it with no intention of either using it or keeping it. I feel no sympathy for those who expect to find things at bargain basement prices, but I can understand feeling resentment towards those who merely want to line their pockets.

To me, it comes down to the fact that Sal has acknowledged that the delivery system for Sprint Runs is less than ideal, told us that estimating run size is an inexact science, even for someone with his 30 years experience in the knife business, and asked for suggestions. To some of us, one thing that would help, would be to find a way to reduce the incentive to purchase strictly for short-term profit without creating any unnecessary work or risk for Spyderco and their dealers. Changing the format from "there will only ever be NNN" to "The initial run will be NNN pieces, but we reserve the right to produce more if demand warrants" might be one way to accomplish that. It's not telling anyone what they can, or can't do, just shifting the odds and making it more of a gamble for them to do it.

Deacon, to me it would just make more sense to offer a another level of the Collectors Club, specifically designed for "Sprint Runs", you get 1 knife guaranteed. I cannot say how the details would be laid out, because I have no clue how teh CC works or what it would entail logistically. A slight modification of an already implemented system makes more sense than reinventing the wheel (so to speak, probably not an ideal choice of words).