Springfield Rifle answers sought

Joined
Mar 22, 2002
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I know there's some gunnies here. I need your help.
I need to know if the gas vent system or arrangment on a Springfield is more problematic than other bolts- like the Mauser. I recall reading something about the gas venting being less desirable.
I need to know any way the Springfield rifle could fire unintentionally. This includes problems common to any bolt, and Springfield if applicable.

I don't believe the lock up is quite as strong as a Mauser. But I'm really a Springfield novice.
Any help?


munk
 
Munk,

A springfield 03 is a mauser, we ended up paying royalties to produce it!
 
That is true, 45/70, but we initally designed it to be just different enough so to avoid royalties- we were not successful. Personally, I think all bolts are mausers.
munk
 
The firing pin is two piece instead of one. Not sure how that works when venting gas.

If the sear was very worn, I'd imaging the action could fire accidentally while closing the bolt. Heavy cosmo could cause it too, I suppose.

Pat
 
I always assume any gun is loaded and ready to fire. That way you handle it safely. There are tons of Springfields around that work fine if they have been properly cared for. If in doubt I'd suggest letting a gunsmith give it a cleanup and a look-see just to be sure everything is in place and working properly.
 
As a former Marine, I admit bias in favor of the Springfield. Well maintained, it's as safe and accurate as any main battle rifle of it's time, when 2- 2 1/2" groups were acceptable to all. However, if you tinker with the two-stage military trigger trying to get it below about four pounds pull, if one gets the angle of the sear a hair off you may encounter slam fires. Try cocking the bolt on an empty chamber, then bounce the butt from about 4 - 6" off the floor, and see if the rifle fires. If so, see an armourer for a quick and easy fix! As for gas venting, unless you're using extra hot reloads and ignoring published maximums, you are safe as church. Blaze away, Bro!!!
 
Munk,

The only concerns I have about the M1903 is to avoid early numbers, around 875,000 or so for Springfield, and around 275,000 or so for RIA.

These are approximate, but anything in this range or earlier were not heat treated to more modern standards, and are not considered safe with modern loads. A reputable dealer will mention this, in some way or other.

Hope that is not redundant info.

Take care,

Tom
 
Munk,

The only concerns I have about the M1903 is to avoid early numbers, around 875,000 or so for Springfield, and around 275,000 or so for RIA.

These are approximate, but anything in this range or earlier were not heat treated to more modern standards, and are not considered safe with modern loads. A reputable dealer will mention this, in some way or other.
Tom
Absolutely spot on. Should have remembered to pass that as well....guess I really am getting to be a geezer...:eek: :D
 
Munk,

The only concerns I have about the M1903 is to avoid early numbers, around 875,000 or so for Springfield, and around 275,000 or so for RIA.

These are approximate, but anything in this range or earlier were not heat treated to more modern standards, and are not considered safe with modern loads. A reputable dealer will mention this, in some way or other.

Hope that is not redundant info.

Take care,

Tom

I read the same thing years ago, and was told to just try and avoid anything below 1,000,000 to be safe. My father-in-law had a beautiful old 1903, but didn't fire it because of the low #.

Norm
 
(Low numbered receiver are those with serial numbers below 800,000 made at Springfield Armory, and below 286,506 made at Rock Island Arsenal.)

http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/

Springfield Armory below 800,000, y'all- don't be giving me a heart attack.


Mike
 
Alright. Let me clear this air- one thing, the Army refused the early serial numbers not doubly heat treated. Do you know what a financial burden it would be to re-do all those recievers? The MARINES had little choice but to accept them.

I know this from following various links, many provided by Ad Astra, about the Springfield.
The odds of you making it out of your neighborhood one hundred miles, alive, in a car, are much worse than having a low serial number blow up on you.

Funny stuff, and something to think about with our Kamis: one of the problems was a certain factory used visual sight and color change to determine hardness of a reciever. You know- the same color changes observed by the Kamis?? Yet the difference between a cloudy day and sunny day with this visual determination was 350 degrees. !!

The gas vent thing I was going on has been answered privately by some knowledgeable gunsmiths I depend upon. I'm only sorry I was not able to pick Dave Rishar's brain. There is a small hole on the left side of the reciever to vent gases; I do not believe this is on the Mauser. I can check- I'm a disgusting parasite who owns two Mausers- but there is no way the small hole could vent 48000 psi of gas, let alone 80,000 amd bust up. The Springfield has a conical bolt head designed to limit blow by gas; pretty smart. I beleive the Mauser has more provsion at the sides of the bolt carriage to vent erruptive gas than does the Springfield; which is exactly where gas is going to go during a catostrophic failure.
This the kind of knowledge I was looking for in posting this thread.


munk
 
Munk, the hole in your Springfield's reciever is likely a "Hatcher Hole" - a gas relief measure taken after a few service members were killed and injured by those low numbered rifles... (and poor quality ammo had a lot to do with it as well).

Hatcher Holes are not found on all of them- might google it.


Mike
 
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/usmc_rebuilding_m1903.htm

The Hatcher Hole:

Once it was determined that the early numbered ‘03s tended to have brittle receivers (not all of them did, but the incidence was enough to call for a change in the heat treating process in 1918). The so-called double heat-treated (and thus safe) receivers are considered to be 800,001 for Springfield Armory and 285,507 for Rock Island Arsenal (who also interspersed their double heat treated receiver material with a nickel steel version with no clear division by serial number). Much discussion was generated about what to do with the so called “low numbered receivers”… Springfield tried several methods of re-heat treating the older receivers, but no satisfactory solution ever emerged. In short, they were stuck with what they had on hand. A board was convened to come up with a suitable solution. Eventually, they decided to withdraw all the low numbered rifles from service as they were turned in and replace them with the double heat treated variety.

Julian S. Hatcher also recommended the addition of another gas escape hole on the left hand side of the M1903 receiver a bit larger than the small hole on the right hand side. Such a hole would more efficiently allow the escape of gas in the event of some sort of catastrophic failure of the case, or blown primers. This suggestion/recommended modification to the ’03 was well known within the ordnance community, but lay fallow with the Army until October 1936 when all subsequent M1903 receivers would be manufactured with the additional hole. The M1903A3 and A4s were manufactured without the gas relief hole on the right side of the receiver using only the Hatcher Hole version on the left side of the receiver.

Cessation of the manufacture of Service Grade (issue) M1903s ended in 1927, thus the new gas relief (Hatcher) hole had little effect on the final production of the Service Springfield. All rifles produced from 1928 through the end of production were either rifles offered for sale through the DCM, or rifles manufactured for the National Matches. The Marines had taken note of Hatcher’s modification however. The shops in Philadelphia drilled the additional “Hatcher Hole” on virtually all of the rifles that came through (or back through) their shops. In fact, the Marine Corps never made an attempt to withdraw any of the “low numbered” ‘03s from service (unless they were unserviceable for other reasons). When a low numbered gun came through the shops, they totally inspected the rifle, installed a new barrel if necessary, replaced the stock if needed (no new cartouches of course), replaced the bolt with a double heat treated or nickel steel variety, and drilled the Hatcher Hole in the receiver. The rifle was then issued with the proviso that it not be utilized to fire rifle grenades.

While it may be that the Army made similar alterations to their ‘03s, I cannot pin such a conversion down. I have seen many Marine Corps guns sporting the “Hatcher Hole” and replacement barrels. In a Navy ROTC Unit at Tulane University that I used to inspect, virtually every rifle had the “Hatcher Hole” in the receiver, and the Marine Instructor(s) told me that they had received the rifles from the Marine Corps… Absolute proof? Of course not, but it lends credence to the theory for sure…

As a further aside, the Navy ROTC Rifles at Tulane also had their bolts numbered to the receiver with what appeared to be an electo-pencil (or similar). Were all bolts on Marine Corps Rifles serial numbered? Answer – some were, some weren’t. It just depended on the era and what production mode the ordnance folks at Philadelphia were in. Conversely, I have never seen any of the Army Rifle Bolts numbered to the gun, with the exception of the National Match Rifles from Springfield. Even some of the NM Rifles had their serial numbers polished off the bolt for aesthetics by their proud owners. Does that mean that none of the Army guns were serial numbered? Of course not, but a service grade rifle with a numbered bolt would smell suspiciously like a Marine Corps Rifle – absolute? Certainly not, but it’s something for the experienced collector to look for.
 
More Hatcherisms:

In his Notebook, he spends some time on the Springfield receiver problem, the probable causes of it, and how it was remedied. Being Hatcher, he also blew up some guns to see just what was happening.

My copy has disappeared so I'm operating off memory here, but IIRC he had no problems running proof loads through the brittle receivers. (Indeed, they'd already seen proof loads at least once during the acceptance process or they wouldn't have been in service in the first place.) This, in receivers that were quite literally brittle enough to be shattered by a hammer blow. He speculated that the failures were most likely caused by other things -- running 8mm Mauser ammunition through them (several documented cases), firing rounds off with bullets or cleaning gear stuck in the bores (also documented numerous times), poor quality ammunition, and some other stuff. He also noted a clear link between shooters who weren't seriously harmed by exploding firearms and those that wore shooting glasses; the serious injuries were generally to the eyes of shooters not so protected. (This was my experience during my blowup as well, although it took months for the resulting flinch to go away. No, it wasn't with a Springfield.)

The problem was not unexpected failures; the problem was the mode of failure, namely grenading rather than distorting. This obviously made injuries more serious than they otherwise would have been. While I don't have any hard figures, I would not be surprised to find the failure rate of high-numbered Springfields in service to be similar...just that the injuries were less severe and the failures were far less spectacular.

The Army did not recall the faulty receivers but simply replaced them with new ones as they were withdrawn for maintenance as normal. The Marines never bothered at all. These are clearly not the desperate actions of organizations that are worried about unacceptable casaulties and a loss of faith in the weapons. Perhaps the problem is a bit overblown?

The theory in that one link about the failures possibly leading to several craftsmen rather than the process itself is particularly compelling. I suspect that if they'd kept better records, we'd find that most of those early receivers are perfectly safe and we'd be able to tell the good ones from the bad ones.

I know next to nothing about Springfields; my knowledge is pretty much limited to Hatcher's writings on them. They were never really an interest of mine, oddly enough.
 
So, Dave- I can't resist asking- should I buy/shoot one that is 867,XXX?

Made in (late) 1918, has the NS or nickle steel bolt marking.

That's the why I've been doing homework.


Mike
 
According to most sources, that should be fine.

Should. I recall Hatcher discussing the vagueries of the serial numbering system in the same section. Not every receiver was numbered in the order that it was built, and some evidently sat for considerable time before being numbered and assembled into a rifle.

Flawed heat treat or not, it's nearly ninety years old. Do you trust it to fire? Does your gunsmith? Remember, he's the one that gets paid to know this stuff; I'm just a guy on the internet.
 
Ad Astra; if it was a Hatcher hole, it would not appear on 1940's era Springfields made by Remington.

You guys are so interesting. I wish I had you all in the munk compound or in Zortman MT. Lord only knows what we'd do as the Zortman Gun Club.


munk
 
Many thanks Dave and munk.

I have a C&R license and have already vacuumed up all the common and cheap rifles, and a lot of fun is had doing it. Tremendous learning process. But like missing a DOTD, some surplus things come and go; usually gone forever.

The CMP Springfield's are one of those. Gone in the last year. The Garands seem pretty picked over/poor too. I dunno. No dealers I know have any '03's; gunbroker and individuals seem to be the best bet.

I still don't know jack about the '03: there is a lot to learn about these, just a tremendous amount. Some big, thick books on it. So I just threw up a bunch of web sites. I know this: I'd like one. :D It's strange that fine Mausers can be had for $100, but '03's of the same vintage seem to start at $500-600.

Indelible piece of American history right there, though. Anyone ever read Leon Uris' "Battle Cry," the classic about U.S. Marines? Some great writing; especially the part when the boots are issued '03's which "had slept between the two wars" in cosmoline.


Mike
 
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