Spyderco Benchstone

redhawk44p

redhawk44p

Joined
Jan 10, 2004
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I just bought the ultra fine benchstone. All I can say is SWEEET! It puts a mirror edge on the blade that cuts free standing hair. Does anyone else use one? What grit is the stone? Thanks
 
If it is like the rod, it appears to be tightly bonded smooth rounded abrasive of around 2000 grit JIS. The bond and particle shape cause it to leave a finer surface finish than its actual grit size.
 
Thanks yuzuha. I polish with 2000 grit sandpaper and the stone finish is much shinier. I have emailed Spyderco trying to find out.
 
I want one for Christmas, right now I only have the Spyderco Fine and Medium benchstones, and have to use my sharpmaker rods when I need to go ultrafine.
 
redhawk44p said:
Thanks yuzuha. I polish with 2000 grit sandpaper and the stone finish is much shinier. I have emailed Spyderco trying to find out.
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Well, I'm using JIS waterstone grit, that I'm guessing from a photomicrograph I made of an ultra/super fine sharpmaker rod:


(25x objective with 1.3mpixel camera, giving something like 1,300 to 1,400 magnification. 1/128th inch, which should be about 200 microns, shows as 10.5-11 inches on my screen). As you can see, the particles look very smooth and rounded and appear to be made of particles of about 7 - 9 microns (several smaller, a few larger) buried to different depths in the matrix.

My guess is that you are getting a finer finish because the abrasive is smooth and rounded rather than sharp and angular, and because it is very tightly and densely bonded. So it is probably burnishing the surface of your steel smooth rather than cutting / grinding it smooth (since the grit in a waterstone is sharp and angular and loosely bonded, it will easily slice out thin shavings leaving parallel rows of angular grooves, and you would need to use a much finer grit waterstone to get the surface as smooth as the burnished surface the larger rounded particles leave).

My guess is that on a large area your mirror finish will have sort of a ripply, watery, shimmery or streaked effect rather than being smooth and even like a telescope mirror, because it is probably tearing out hunks of metal, then flattening and smearing them over the surface (burniishing).
 
yuzuha said:
My guess is that on a large area your mirror finish will have sort of a ripply, watery, shimmery or streaked effect rather than being smooth and even like a telescope mirror, because it is probably tearing out hunks of metal, then flattening and smearing them over the surface (burniishing).
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I sure hope no one comes at me with a microscope wanting to see my edge! All I know is that it leaves a beautiful finish and covers the blade with hair when I pass it above the skin on my leg. I cut up a number of cardboard boxes yesterday and it would still shave.

Yuzuha where is a good place to get waterstones? I would like to try them. Tips on your sharpening methods would also be appreciated.
 
Well, lets see. Japan Woodworker sharpening page is a good place to get Shapton stones... the M15 series is more for carpenters, the M24 only go up to about 5,000 grit as they are designed for kitchen knives and heavy-handed sharpeners, the LR-250 are huge versions of the M15 without a base. Those are more traditional stones, there is also the kuromaku or professional series that is a hard resin bonded stone that doesn't absorb water or form a slurry and tries to do the job of both the M15 and M24. the M5 are cheaper half-stones with a 1/4" layer of material like the pro stones, only with slightly lower percentage of abrasive on a ceramic base. These are designed to be cheaper and for more occasional use in home kitchens and workshops (they cut nearly as fast as the pro so they are good for getting a taste of how the pro stones feel (I have a similar 5k stone that crazed... got covered with a network of tiny cracks... though this didn't affect anything. None of my pro stones crazed). They also have natural aoto/blue stones, Bester ceramic waterstones, Suehiro clay and magnesia stones, the popular King F series 4k grit stones (F1 is large, F2 medium and F3 small), my favorite 220 grit pink brick and a number of other nice stones (also the very soft, green Naniwa 10,000 grit super ceramic stone.... this one works best on wide bevels like on chisels or the backs of plane blades, and probably works well on Scandi. pukkos too, but very easy to gouge with narrow beveled blades unless you are an expert at holding your angle perfectly or use edge-trailing strokes) They also carry a King diamond/ceramic waterstone (expensive though. Also has better reviews than the Naniwa diamond stones)

Shapton USA sells a slightly different product line (pro stones in English wrappers and they say a different binder that handles humitiy variations better. And, their new glass-stones, which are a layer of abrasive on float-glass and come in a different grit progression with the grit number and micron size marked on them: http://www.shaptonstones.com/

http://www.hidatool.com/ also carries some nice natrual and artificial stones including the King G1 (8k) and the Naniwa Snow White (8k magnesia stone similar to the Kitayama only a trifle harder and much harder than the 10k super stone, both of which look brown/orange in the photos but are really mint green and pure white)

Then there is Blade Gallery / Epicurian edge (both run by the same people but one more for collectors and the other for kitchen knives) http://www.epicureanedge.com/ which has some very nice sets (the 319 $ set seems hard to beat)

Tools for Working Wood has every possible size variation of the Norton waterstones as well as Ice Bear (Kumagoro... they are a trading company and appear to have Matsunaga King make most of their stones for them, and people who have them like them. I'm told their 10k is similar to the Kitayama that gets rated anywhere from 8k to 12k). They also have most all of Norton's oil/india/arkansas stones and diamond plates.

Japanese Knife.com also has the Naniwa Snow White and their 3k and 5k super ceramics (which I'm told are harder than the green 10k) some giant brick sized Kings, some Suisin-Inox stones ( http://www.suisin.co.jp/English/product/whetstone/man-made/index.htm )

Korin also carries a selection of them.

Craftman Studio also has some nice prices on Norton and DMT Dia-sharp kits, including one that has a stone holder, 3 diamond plates and a Norton 8k.

Lee Valley and several of the woodworking places also carry a random selection.

Well, there are a number of Japanese movies that are mostly just someone doing the old push-pull and walking thier fingers down the back of the blade as they inch it crosswise over the stone. Pretty much summed up here http://www.japanese-knife.com/video_sharpen/ The real trick is learning to tell when you have the bevel flat on the stone (not so hard on a flat back or wide bevel but the narrow ones are harder). You'll usually be able to feel a slight click as you raise the spine and on some stones, you can get a visual clue by the way the water wells out from under the edge.
 
WOW!:eek: That was even more than I hoped for. I can see you have studied sharpening to an amazing degree. I will go now to explore the links you provided. Thanks.:D :thumbup:
 
Yeah, it would be a decent starter. A nice big 800 grit should last a long time. Maybe a bit coarse for routine keep-up but good for putting an edge back on. The King S3 is the small version of their 6000 grit stone which isn't as highly reviewed as their F (4k) and G (8k) series stones but still pretty good and will polish up an edge nicely... and you can use a few swipes on it in place of a steel for touch ups.

Both are clay stones and should soak up water nicely (you can also store them in water if you want since the binder is pretty much like a clay flowerpot, though you might want to put in a pinch of washing soda to keep the water alkaline (the swarf stuck to the stone will rust in acidic water and make them look a mess, but won't really hurt them). They should have that nice tactile feedback and good water retention too (clay stones are nice in this respect.... should look damp, but if you touch it, water will well up out of the stone onto your finger... it will also well out from under the edge of a blade when you get the bevel flat on the stone, which is helpful when you aren't experimenting with different angles and just want to sharpen something at whatever bevel angle it originally had.... Feel for that tiny "click" when you raise the spine, and even if you can't feel it, you should be able to tell by watching the water around the edge).
 
Thanks for the help. I have always used arkansas stone or sandpaper but lately I have become interested in waterstones.
Do you use the Nagura stone for creating paste on the finishing stone or is that a waste of time?
 
You use the nagura on your polish stones in two ways. You can use it to help make a polishing paste on the stone... this helps keep down burr formation and gives a nice edge but the polish may not appear as bright and shiny as polishing without it (it tends to give a more matte finish rather than neat little rows of scratches so it doesn't reflect light the same. Some nagura may also get caught in the pores of stainless steel and leave a dark haze, but this doesn't hurt anything and will come off stropping or using a finer stone). The second way to use it is to rub it on the surface of a stone to clean it or refresh the surface (in the rare case that it glazes, or more likely just gets too smooth and looses traction so the knife tends to skate over the surface rather than cut). You can also use it to smooth out the surface a little after you lap a stone flat.

I mostly use Tsushima nagura... the black laquered cubes here http://www2.odn.ne.jp/mandaraya/tn-0.htm (came from an underwater mine in the ocean, but it was mined out in the 70s so the stuff is hard to find... I've never seen it in the U.S. exept an unlaquered lighter variety on Ghost-Cat, but a friend picked one up for me on a trip to Japan) I also have a white porous nagura (lookes like the white one at the top of this page http://www.ghost-cat.com/sharpeshoppe/japanese.htm that I use second (makes a bit thicker paste) and a hard striped nagura, as well as a couple of artificial ones from Suehiro and Kitayama. All have a slightly different character (thick or thin runny paste, and soft or hard) so which I grab depends on what I'm sharpening on which stone.
 
I have been sharpening for most of my 54 years but I have never tried waterstones. I really do need to correct that. I really appreciate your help Yuzuha.
 
Redhawk44p,

I can't begin to compare with yuzuha when it comes to knowledge or experience about and with most waterstones, but can tell you that www.toolsforworkingwood.com has some of the best prices seen on Norton's waterstones and 3M 1 micron and 0.3 microns aluminum oxide lapping film (pretty good price on Norton's diamond paste, too, if you're ready to move away from BC and CrO on your strop). If you put the lapping film on a hard, flat surface (glass comes to mind), you can use it similar to high-grit waterstone (Shapton's 15,000 glasstone is 0.92 microns and their 30,000 grit puppy is 0.49 microns - there's a lot more to it than that, but the 3M aluminum oxide film leaves a good finish and works great with water).

If you want a large diamong for flattening stones and reprofiling knives, there's an eBayer named tools-for-u who has the lowest prices I've ever seen on DMT's 120 grit Dia-Sharp and some of the lowest prices on gianormous Duo-Sharps I've ever seen. Shipped me my backup 120 grit diamond very quickly.

The set you linked to (King 1000 and 6000 grit waterstones with nagura and ever-handy stone holder) looks like a great deal. I have 1000/6000 combo stone by the same maker and its 1000 grit stone is amazing (I think my 6000 is almost as defective as I am).
 
Ohhh you guys are killing me! I spend too much money on knives and sharpening stuff already and you tell me about this great sharpening equipment. I would like to have two of everything. I do intend to get it but I have to stay this side of divorced.:o :D
It is great that the people here with vastly superior knowledge on the subject of sharpening take the time to help someone struggling to get up to speed. It is greatly appreciated.
 
If you want an even sharper edge than the ultra-fine stone can produce, you can make a leather strop as well. It doesnt cost more than about 20 bucks to buy some leather and glue it to a 5 gallon paint stirrer. You can load the leather with chromium oxide or another stropping compound to do an even better job of finishing then edge. I have 2 strops, one mounted rouch side up loaded with boron carbide (11,000 grit), and the other strop is mounted smooth side up and loaded with chromium oxide (60,000 grit). The best place to get this stuff is www.handamerican.com.
 
I have those two stropping compounds Mike. They are great but have to be used very skillfully or they round the edge.
 
If your interested in the Norton's take a look in the kitchen forum at KF.
 
Thanks DB. There are some good deals there but I bought this kit already. Thanks everyone for the help. I am looking forward to trying waterstones.:)
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After a great deal of reflection I cancelled the order ond bought the
Norton Water Stone 8"x3"x1" 220/1k + 4k/8k stones, Flattening Plate and DVD.
WOW what a sharpening set. It removes metal like magic and hones the edge to an amazing degree. I then use my Spyderco ultrafine benchstone to burnish the edge. It removes the last vestige of a burr. My knives have never been this sharp. My Sharpmaker has a PARKED sign on it.
 
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