Spyderco Ceramic Stones Fine or Ultra Fine to add to DuoSharp C/F?

aleforme

aleforme

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So I spent the last couple weeks working with stones and it’s finally clicking. I’ve been using a cheap True Value 8 inch coarse/fine combo stone and Falkniven DC4 diamond/ceramic combo stone with good results. The DC4 is a excellent little stone but it is very small.

I wanted to get some larger higher quality stones so I have a 8” DMT DuoSharp in Coarse/Fine setup coming in a couple days. I also want to add a finer grit stone and was thinking about the Spyderco Fine or Ultra fine ceramic 8” stone. I’m just not sure which would be the logical and most effective stone after the DMT fine. I would of course be using a strop at the end of the process. My knives are in good shape so I will hold off on a Extra Coarse stone for now.

I’ve read a ton on threads here and I’m still a little confused on the correct progression of stones. I don’t need a mirror edge but want to get as good of a result as possible without going to extremes.

So, Spyderco Fine or Ultra Fine? Or, would you consider something else? I was also considering a Diasharp Extra Fine or Extra Extra Fine to keep everything diamond. The finer DuoSharp stones just get a little too expensive for me right now.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions. I'm pumped that it's finally clicking for me and I'm getting good results. I just want to make it a little more efficient.
 
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If following the DMT C/F sequence, I've come to prefer staying on diamond, and utilizing something like the DMT EF instead; maybe the EEF as well, if a near-polished edge is the goal. The best attribute of a diamond-honed edge, to me, is the clean-cutting and relatively burr-free 'tooth' that still remains, even at very fine diamond grits (EF/EEF). In trying to refine such edges on anything ceramic (Spyderco, etc), I've always been a little regretful in doing so, as the ceramics will quickly take some or a lot of that toothy bite out of the edge. So, I often turn around and reapply that tooth on the diamond hone again, and leave it at that. The other downside to ceramics, in my view, is their greater tendency to form burrs, especially if the touch gets just a little too heavy. The cleaner-cutting diamond is more forgiving in that regard, and the difference is especially noticeable at very fine grits.

I have Spyderco Medium and Fine bench stones and have almost never used them, for the reasons stated. I also have a Fallkniven DC4, and seldom use the ceramic side, except for some occasional very light burnishing tasks. I've resurfaced (lapped) the ceramic on that stone (DC4), so it's a little closer to a Spyderco Medium stone than it used to be (which was very, very coarse when new).

Edited to add:
Another reason (potentially) for staying with diamond at higher grits is, if the steels you're sharpening are high-vanadium content (S30V, S90V, etc), it becomes more difficult to refine the vanadium carbides with less-hard abrasives (AlOx/ceramic, SiC, natural stones) at smaller/finer grit sizes. Diamond or CBN abrasives will be the only ones hard enough to actually cut or shape the vanadium carbides, which is more important as the size of the abrasive grit decreases to a level approaching the size of the carbides (commonly 2-4µ in CPM-type steels). Otherwise, with less-hard abrasive, the grit can only cut around the carbides or basically skate over them, without being able to shape them to a crisp cutting edge at the apex. Less-hard grit at larger sizes (10µ or larger) will tend only to scoop the vanadium carbides out of the steel and the edge, which is usually still OK at coarser finishes, if that's all you're needing. The problems will start to show up if attempting to polish the edge and refine to the degree that ordinarily comes with that polish.


David
 
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I'll 2nd OwE's post... if using diamond, I like to stick with diamond. You'll get a pretty great edge off the DMT fine though, so you may just want to wait and see if that satisfies your need.
 
I use the ultrafine spyderco for maintenance when I just want to touch up my edge in-between sharpenings. I don't need water and I can just do it while at my desk. I do follow it up with stropping.

Just for reference, the Spyderco UF, I learned here is 3 microns while the DMT fine is 25 microns. IMO, that's too big of a jump and the question is, you may not need/want to do the jump. As others have said, you may just see if the Fine is sufficient for you. If not, the extra fine is 9 microns sized.
 
Thanks for the responses. I see your point about keeping it consistent. I think the coarse/fine combo would probably be more than adequate for my standards but was wanting to get a finer stone to keep practicing and taking my skills a bit further. I'm think it might be best to go with the DMT stones. I guess the next question would be which one. The Fine is 25 Micron while the Extra fine is 9 and the Extra fine is 3. It appears there is also a Medium Extra Fine at 6 microns. As mentioned above, the jump 25 to 3 might be a little too much. I'm guessing the Extra Fine at 9 Microns would be OK.

Thanks again for the above responses.

If anyone uses the Duosharp stand, can the DiaSharp stones be set on top of the stand in place of the Duosharp stones? I know they won't lock in but I was wondering if they would physically fit and just lay in the holder. This would keep the height more consistent between stones. 8" system.
 
aleforme said:
If anyone uses the Duosharp stand, can the DiaSharp stones be set on top of the stand in place of the Duosharp stones? I know they won't lock in but I was wondering if they would physically fit and just lay in the holder. This would keep the height more consistent between stones. 8" system.
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Yes. Just note that the DiaSharps are a little wider, so if you stick the little rubber feet on the bottom (that usually come with the stone), inset them a little so they contact the DuoSharp stand. (Or try it without them, the DuoSharp base has little rubber contact points that help hold the stones... probably enough). :thumbup:
 
cbwx34 said:
Yes. Just note that the DiaSharps are a little wider, so if you stick the little rubber feet on the bottom (that usually come with the stone), inset them a little so they contact the DuoSharp stand. (Or try it without them, the DuoSharp base has little rubber contact points that help hold the stones... probably enough). :thumbup:
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Thanks, that's exactly what I was asking. Good tip about the feet. If I go with the Diasharp, I'll keep that in mind.


Thanks again, much appreciated.
 
aleforme said:
Thanks for the responses. I see your point about keeping it consistent. I think the coarse/fine combo would probably be more than adequate for my standards but was wanting to get a finer stone to keep practicing and taking my skills a bit further. I'm think it might be best to go with the DMT stones. I guess the next question would be which one. The Fine is 25 Micron while the Extra fine is 9 and the Extra fine is 3. It appears there is also a Medium Extra Fine at 6 microns. As mentioned above, the jump 25 to 3 might be a little too much. I'm guessing the Extra Fine at 9 Microns would be OK.

Thanks again for the above responses.

If anyone uses the Duosharp stand, can the DiaSharp stones be set on top of the stand in place of the Duosharp stones? I know they won't lock in but I was wondering if they would physically fit and just lay in the holder. This would keep the height more consistent between stones. 8" system.
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If choosing one for following the DMT Fine (25µ), I've grown to like the EF (9µ). I think a lot of others here have liked it as well. Anything from the Coarse to the EF can make great working edges, so I think the Coarse, Fine, EF combo would be most versatile. The EEF (3µ) begins to produce a hazy polish, assuming it's used in sequence following the C/F/EF hones. I view that step (EEF) mainly as specialty-use hone, IF you're pursuing more polished edges with less of a toothy bite. Otherwise, I sort of feel like the toothy bite left by any one of the Coarse, Fine or EF hones is the most optimal.

Assuming the design hasn't changed since I bought mine, the Duo-Sharp stand/base has four (4) rubber grommets in the central portion, spaced about 6-5/8" apart length-wise and 1-5/8" width-wise, which should provide some traction for the 8" Dia-Sharp plates, if those are what you're considering. Probably a little too far apart for the 6" Dia-Sharp plates* (I have those, as well as an 8" Duo-Sharp). The Dia-Sharp plates are pretty heavy, so I wouldn't worry about them moving or slipping much in use, on that stand. If you got somewhat creative, you could still improvise some short spacers (1/4" thick x ~ 7/16" width, I'm calculating) to clamp into each end of the Duo-Sharp base, to keep the 8" Dia-Sharp plate from moving back & forth. Just an idea... ;)

( * I'm just now realizing there's a 6" x 2" recess in the center of the Duo-Sharp base's platform; the perfect size for my 6" x 2" Dia-Sharp plates. Right there in front of me, and I never noticed. DMT built the thing pretty cleverly. Go figure... :D )


David
 
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So I received the DMT Coarse/Fine DuoSharp and it's pretty impressive. I immediately grabbed my Opinel No. 8 that was pretty dull and tried it out. Not a lot of luck on the Opinel and it took me a while to get a decent edge. I'm still not that happy with it. However, I have read that DMT diamond stones and carbon steel don't get along to well. I got it shaving sharp quickly on my Falkniven DC4.

I then grabbed a 8" Wusthof Chef Knife and tried it out. Quick success! It's brought the edge to shaving sharp really quick. Maybe 8 to 10 strokes per side on the coarse and maybe 15 to 20 on the fine. On the fine stone, I started with a little pressure at first and then ended with just a very light stroke. Probably was good after a few strokes but I tried to really lighten up at the end.

So, I'm pretty happy so far. I think I will just stick with these two grits for a couple weeks and then see if I want or need to move to the Extra Fine stones.

Thanks again for all the help.

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I have dmt stones up to 8000mesh and I have the spyderco medium and UF bench stones .

I like the edge I get off of just the coarse diamond . If I need more refinement I'll go through the dmts then go to the UF . Thing is even when going from 8k diamond to the UD when that bevel hits that ceramic it sounds and feels like the edge is very dirty the ceramics smooth this out .

For pretty polished edges the spydercos are awesome . For great cutting the dMt even at 8k gives a slightly toothy edge . If you like some tooth stay with the diamonds and maybe get a medium bench stone .

If you like polished edges and push cutting get the UF . They all have their place and I don't see myself getting rid of any of my stones .

On your dmts remember now they calm down a little bit after some use and that's when you can really get a nice edge . They need time to wear in to be at their full potential
 
For whatever reason, I tend to really bear down on my DMTs, which is a huge mistake. A light touch and let the stone do the work is the secret to success (for me, at least). I like to finish on the DMT EEF, really like the edge that it puts on. Once in a while, I'll drop to the Spyderco medium, but I'm starting to prefer just the EEF lately. As others have said, it leaves a very nice, crisp edge on any steel I have have.
 
On the Opinel, if it's the 'carbone' version, go as light as possible on the diamond hone. The 'carbone' steel (XC90) is very, very 'soft' on a diamond hone, and an extremely light touch is always better for the finishing strokes on the diamond. Especially if trying to hone on the Coarse side of your Duo-Sharp hone, it could leave the edge pretty rough; also on the 'Fine' side, if the pressure is even a little too heavy. If you have plans to get the EF DMT, and/or the EEF sometime, try the Opinel on either of those. With such soft steels (no carbides, relatively low RC), a less-aggressive diamond hone is a little easier to work with; hence the suggestion to try either the EF or EEF on that one. Ideally, something like a simple AlOx stone (India, hardware store oilstone, etc) or Arkansas stones will go more gently with such simple steels; but in their absence, a finer diamond hone can work pretty well, even for reprofiling tasks. With such steels in smaller blades, I usually don't use anything more aggressive than a Fine diamond at all, for any task.

aleforme said:
So I received the DMT Coarse/Fine DuoSharp and it's pretty impressive. I immediately grabbed my Opinel No. 8 that was pretty dull and tried it out. Not a lot of luck on the Opinel and it took me a while to get a decent edge. I'm still not that happy with it. However, I have read that DMT diamond stones and carbon steel don't get along to well. I got it shaving sharp quickly on my Falkniven DC4.

I then grabbed a 8" Wusthof Chef Knife and tried it out. Quick success! It's brought the edge to shaving sharp really quick. Maybe 8 to 10 strokes per side on the coarse and maybe 15 to 20 on the fine. On the fine stone, I started with a little pressure at first and then ended with just a very light stroke. Probably was good after a few strokes but I tried to really lighten up at the end.

So, I'm pretty happy so far. I think I will just stick with these two grits for a couple weeks and then see if I want or need to move to the Extra Fine stones.

Thanks again for all the help.
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Thanks for the continued response. I'm getting a lot of very useful information. I'm still going to try the Opinel Carbone on the DMT fine and see if I can master it. Based on what O w/ E was saying, I was probably being a little to aggressive with the pressure I was applying. I know my cheap True Value stone and the DC4 will get it sharp but now it's a "challenge" with the DMT!

I still plan on getting the DMT EF pretty soon and possibly the EEF down the road. I might also pick up a Spyderco Medium, Fine or Ultra Fine as well just so I can learn how they handle certain steels and to get the experience with them. It's just fun learning how to use these stones and will be interesting to see what kind of results the various stones produce. As mentioned above, each have their place.

Thanks again.
 
Since getting my XC/C & F/EF duosharp stones in the winter I haven't used my sharpmaker ceramics since. I am no expert, but here are some of my experiences:

It took me 4 to 5 complete bevel reprofiles for my DuoSharp stones to "break in" all while trying not to apply any more pressure needed than to keep the bevel steady. I didn't really know what to expect as far as knowing when they were "broken-in". I guess the best way I can explain it is the bevel seems to scratch across the stone flatter, without any rocking/rolling/jerking feeling. I also discovered that for me water really helps with carbon steels, especially on the fine and extra fine. The water will help carry the steel fragments into the circles and keep the diamonds cutting.

I do have to apply a little more pressure on harder D2 steels and that always concerns me. Also D2 doesn't seem to benefit much from the extra fine. So I end at fine and strop lightly with green compound. Lower end stainless steels like Cases TruSharp and Aus-8 and 440C really respond to the extra fine. I think that has to do with what OwE mentioned about the clean toothy edge vs wire burr from ceramics.

I may need to invest in an extra extra fine soon.
 
So I just wanted to post a quick update for this thread after I responded in another thread. Since the time of this thread, I have added a DMT DiaSharp Extra Fine stone and a Spyderco Fine Ceramic stone. I wasn’t sure if I needed the ceramic stone but I just went ahead and picked it up to try out.

I have gotten much better over the last couple of weeks and have been learning how to use each stone. I think I have a pretty good progression of stones now and it’s a set up that I can get great results from consistently. The DiaSharp Extra Fine stone is really amazing. Many times this is where I end. The 3 DMT stones are more than enough for what I typically need. However, I have been really liking adding the fine ceramic stone at the end of the process. It really cleans up the edge a bit. I find that I’m using it in place of my Sharpmaker for quick touch ups. Maybe 10 to 15 quick strokes per side and I’m getting arm shaving sharpness.

I must say it was really an “Ah Ha” moment when I was able to really “feel” the angle of the blade sitting flush with the stone. That was always a bit of a struggle for me. Now I can place the knife on the stone and feel the correct angle. So much easier now.

My next goal is to start resetting some angles on some older more beat up knives that need some attention. Right now, I’m just finding the current angle and sharpening from there. I need to start being able to reset the angle sharpen at 20 degrees, 25, 30, etc when needed.
 
I agree that the DMT EF is a fantastic finishing stone. I use this a lot for general purpose blades and kitchen blades in particular.

You comment about feeling the angle on the stone is exactly what I was trying to describe as Secret #1 of The Seven Secrets Of Sharpening. You might enjoy reading some of it.

Brian.
 
I read all of them! Great articles and it's really helped me along. Thanks for taking the time to put them together.
 
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