Spyderco fine stone, for shaving?

[diff_lock2]

On the forum Badger and blade it seems people agree that the syderco fine stones acts like 4000k+ Japanese stones regarding the finished edge.

After watching that guy sharpen first on a 1k stone then 6k stone to cut toilet paper, he tests it on his dry cheek and says it shaves very smoothly. After my sharpening job, I would not shave my face with this knife, not nearly sharp enough. What should I do to get that 6k shaving edge?



Sharpening my almost scandi edge:

I reprofield a zdp 189 delica on my wet grinding wheel and then polished it up with a dmt fine and then the spyderco fine. After spending lots of time polishing this shallow and flat edge I continued on to cardboard backing from a notebook loaded with green paste.

The edge will treetop and whittle, but my vg-10 knife with a more obtuse angle feels more sticky sharp than this very acute zdp edge.

Bench stones were used with soap/water mixture and towards the end of the polishing pressure was relieved to very light strokes.

 

[jimnolimit]

it's been my experience that different steels will like to take different levels of sharpness. there is a reason they don't make straight razors out of stainless or tool steels. very pure, fine grained carbon steel loves to take a shaving edge. i wouldn't use green paste (chromium oxide) on high carbide steels, instead you should try a harder abrasive paste (like boron carbide or diamond).

 

[diff_lock2]

Wait, so I can't get my zdp knife ultra sharp with my tools/skills? How do I know if it is micro chipping? Shouldn't zdp 189 be able to become MORE sharp than plane carbon steel?

 

[Jason B.]

The jump in stones is too large so the fine ceramic is not fully removing the fine diamond scratches. It working on your VG-10 blade because the steel type and hardness is much different and your most likely at a much smaller bevel width. When you make your bevel larger and move to a blade with higher wear resistance and hardness how things turn out become much different. You would need to add more stone(s) between or change type of stones past the diamond plate.

 

[diff_lock2]

Carter said he was able to jump from a 1k jap stone to a 6k.

Are you saying that my jump from my grinding wheel to the dmt fine is too drastic or the jump from dmt fine to the spyderco fine is too large a gap?

I have one of those combo stones from the hardware store but the zdp steel just slides across unaffected.

What stone would you suggest to fill the gap?

 

[jimnolimit]

Wait, so I can't get my zdp knife ultra sharp with my tools/skills? How do I know if it is micro chipping? Shouldn't zdp 189 be able to become MORE sharp than plane carbon steel?

Carter said he was able to jump from a 1k jap stone to a 6k.

Are you saying that my jump from my grinding wheel to the dmt fine is too drastic or the jump from dmt fine to the spyderco fine is too large a gap?

I have one of those combo stones for the hardware store but the zdp steel just slides across unaffected.

What stone would you suggest to fill the gap?

murray carter's knives are made out of high carbon steel. low alloy high carbon steel that's properly heat treated will take a fine razor edge pretty easily. very hard steels with high amounts of carbides will require a slightly different approach and probably some different sharpening equipment. with all the premium and exotic steels on the market, why do you think they still make straight razors out of high carbon steel? it's not the price because a decent entry level straight razor is $60+ dollars and most run between $100-$300. another example: look at sushi knives (yanagiba), entry level models are $100-$200, higher-end models range from a few hundred to a few thousand. do you know what they make them out of? low alloy high carbon steel. they do so because those knives are made for precise slicing.

any blade steel can be made to shave with as long as you have the time, right tools and knowhow. most of these exotic steels weren't originally meant for consumer knifes and shaving. most were developed and used for high wear resistance industrial applications. for example: i wouldn't want a straight razor made out of s30v, but a knife made out s30v would come in handy if i was cutting boxes all day.

what grit is your grinding wheel? why are you using a grinding wheel in the first place?

when i sharpen i mostly use japanese water stones. if i reprofile an edge i usually start with 250 grit, then i use either 800 or 1200 , sometimes i go further to 4000 and 6000.

 

[jimnolimit]

The jump in stones is too large so the fine ceramic is not fully removing the fine diamond scratches. It working on your VG-10 blade because the steel type and hardness is much different and your most likely at a much smaller bevel width. When you make your bevel larger and move to a blade with higher wear resistance and hardness how things turn out become much different. You would need to add more stone(s) between or change type of stones past the diamond plate.

diff_lock2, ^ knifenut is spot on.

 

[Jason B.]

Wait, so I can't get my zdp knife ultra sharp with my tools/skills? How do I know if it is micro chipping? Shouldn't zdp 189 be able to become MORE sharp than plane carbon steel?

Yes you can but the way your doing it is effecting the results. Right now your not only sharpening but trying to polish a large bevel, If you used your diamond stone to shape the whole bevel then used your ceramic to microbevel the apex of the edge you would probably have a very sharp blade.

Chipping can happen from the bevel being too thin and cutting tough material or when sharpening on ceramics and using too much pressure. You would know if this is happening. More sharp? all steels get very sharp and some steels will take a better edge than others but it will depend on the steel, the stone, and the skill of the sharpener. Murray Carter gets the results he does because of good matching tools, skill, and being very familiar with the tools he uses.

Personally I like waterstones closely followed by diamond for sharpening ZDP and if trying to polish a large bevel it's for sure waterstones for the finishing steps. ZDP sharpens easily on both type of stones. Also don't rely on grit numbers, use them as a reference but don't count on them to be all the same or yield a finish you think they should.

 

[diff_lock2]

Q: what grit is your grinding wheel?
A: I would have to guess 250grit or lower, but nothing as coarse as 80grit

Q:why are you using a grinding wheel in the first place?
A: It is a fast way for me to reprofile an edge of a knife.

Ok, I think I am expecting the steel to perform more traditionally, but clearly that is not the case. I will be trying this out on my s30v paramilitary, so far it has been easier to get sharper than zdp 189. VG-10, though, was a great steel to work with.

 

[diff_lock2]

kn1013, thanks for pointing out that I was probably trying to polish the bevel rather than concentrating on kissing the cutting edge to the stone.

I think I need to reevaluate my angles and perhaps use the sharpie technique to make sure I am reaching the cutting edge with my diamond hone.

 

[Jason B.]

Q: what grit is your grinding wheel?
A: I would have to guess 250grit or lower, but nothing as coarse as 80grit

Q:why are you using a grinding wheel in the first place?
A: It is a fast way for me to reprofile an edge of a knife.

Ok, I think I am expecting the steel to perform more traditionally, but clearly that is not the case. I will be trying this out on my s30v paramilitary, so far it has been easier to get sharper than zdp 189. VG-10, though, was a great steel to work with.

And their you notice the difference in steels, VG-10 is a low alloy and is ductile or malleable, S30V would be of similar hardness to VG-10 but its more wear resistant and not as ductile so overall it feels harder. ZDP is of very high hardness and wear resistance and most likely has the least ductility of the other two. Each steel will respond differently to the methods used and some better than the others. VG-10 being the best for your method and the other two being less responsive.

 

[jimnolimit]

Q:why are you using a grinding wheel in the first place?
A: It is a fast way for me to reprofile an edge of a knife.

the fastest way isn't always the best way. i learned to sharpen by re-profiling many abused kitchen knives (and other types) by hand. i used a 250 grit stone and alot of strokes to remove dents and chips and get the edges back to normal. was it easy to spend 15-30 minutes (sometime longer) running a 8-10 inch chefs knives on a stone? no. but in the end i got a good feel for sharpening and built up my muscle control. im not saying the way i learned is best, it's probably not, but you're not going to build hand sharpening technique using power tools. think of it this way, re-profiling an edge on a stone is basically the same as finishing, the only thing that really changes is grit and pressure.

what grinder are you using?

 

[pwet]

i havent read the entire thread. just a couple of thoughts.

1. stainless steels are used for razors (industrial and custom straight razors). they can get as sharp as carbon steel, it's just more work.

2. going from 80-120 wheel to 600dmt to 4k ceramic is not the best option in term of scratch pattern refinement, by far.

3. a ceramic stone is the last thing i'd use to polish a large bevel freehand.

4. murray carter is a very skilled knifemaker, he knows his craft, what he can achieve is probably a tiny bit different than what you and me can achieve.

5. murray carter is a very skilled knifemaker, but if every single serious straight razor user ,including myself, spend so much time and money on 1, 3, 5, 8, 10, 15, 30k stones, balsa and leather with sub micron compound, bare leather, newsprint .... it's for a reason. if i could get smooth and painless shave with a 6k edge ... well ...

 

[diff_lock2]

Q:what grinder are you using?
A:A tormek clone. Slow Alox wheel spinning in water.

Next up for my quest for a shave, I cut out a razor out of an old stainless kitchen knife. Razors seem to have a 16deg edge on average, I'll see how I grind it, perhaps a chisel grind.

3. a ceramic stone is the last thing i'd use to polish a large bevel freehand.

Why is that?

I am trying to get in to straight shaving, I think I might end up with the spyderco trio, I just love the stones, and for the price they seem to have other stones beat.

I like the idea of combo stones (norton 4k/8k) but I can't imagine flattening them.

 

[pwet]

for several reason.

first they are not by any mean the fastest polishing stones. the abrasives are hard and effective but the way they are bonded makes them less suitable than waterstones for that. and the more surface you have to polish the more time it'll take.

then because they are hard they don't have much tactile feedback if any and are not very accomodating for freehand sharpening, hard to get an even polish.

for straight razors otoh they will be nearly ideal. as long as you stick with hollow ground razors and avoid full wedges. no wear, flat surface, fine polish ... and you don't have much surface to work with on a hollow ground straight.

 

[jimnolimit]

Next up for my quest for a shave, I cut out a razor out of an old stainless kitchen knife. Razors seem to have a 16deg edge on average, I'll see how I grind it, perhaps a chisel grind.


I am trying to get in to straight shaving, I think I might end up with the spyderco trio, I just love the stones, and for the price they seem to have other stones beat.

your in for an "interesting shave". what type of old kitchen knife are you using? this probably comes back to you seeing murray carter shave with one of his knives.

if you want to get into shaving, get a proper straight razor. better yet, search online for older used (quality) straight razors. this will give you a chance to redo the edge and work your way from low to high grits.

i would also recommend you stop using your grinder and get some japanese water stones. a 250/1000 combination king stone will run $25-$30 and a king 4000 or 6000 will run about $30.