Spyderco in New York State

wintermute

wintermute

Joined
Oct 18, 2007
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Just yesterday, I actually read the NYS knife laws for the first time. The way I understand it, if the law wanted to, they could pretty much consider any locking Spyderco a "gravity knife" since the spyderdrop pretty much works on just centrifugal force. Does that sound right (well, it doesn't sound right at all, but does it sound accurate)?

And taking this one step further, if we look at something like a Buck 110, when you're opening it, your using "centrifugal force", it's just your hand that's applying it where you're grasping the blade. The law doesn't say that the centrifugal force has to be applied without touching the blade.

Scary stuff.
 
Yes, they can, if they choose to.

The NYS penal code is really very vague, and includes phrases such as "...or any other dangerous knife." Basically, while the law doesn't always constrain what you can buy (because plenty of knives are on the shelves in stores here), it may indeed affect what will happen to you when you are stopped while carrying one.

Recently I received an e-mail from someone who was looking for assistance with knife laws. It seems he'd had precisely that problem -- his linerlock folder was spotted, he was arrested, and his knife was declared by the arresting officer to be a "gravity knife" despite the fact that it is nothing of the kind.
 
The law doesn't say that the centrifugal force has to be applied without touching the blade.
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That is correct. NYS courts have upheld criminal posession of a weapon convictions that rose out of a knife being considered a gravity knife because the handle could be flipped open by a person holding the blade. I have never handled a locking folder that couldn't be opened this way with sharp (and propper) wrist manipulation. That includes knives like side lock SAK's. Every, or hust about every locking folder is a gravity knife under NYS law. My Spyderco Native can easily be flipped open. I assume the rest are similar.

A vast majority of the criminal posession of a weapon (gravity knife) charges come out of New York City, where the law mandates that knives be carried concealed (with a few exemptions). This makes it more likely for knife carriers to have negative contact with the police while carrying a folder clipped to their pocket- something that might not attract law enforcement attention in other areas of NYS. I have also seen some prosecutions come out of Nassau and Suffolk as well- though usually the criminal posession charge is an add on to (say) a drug or assault arrest. We have to remember the social and political attitudes in the city that definitely cause the increase in prosecutions there. Even though it isn't common to prosecute people for carrying locking folders elsewhere in NYS, it is something that could happen.
 
wintermute said:
Just yesterday, I actually read the NYS knife laws for the first time. The way I understand it, if the law wanted to, they could pretty much consider any locking Spyderco a "gravity knife" since the spyderdrop pretty much works on just centrifugal force. Does that sound right (well, it doesn't sound right at all, but does it sound accurate)?

And taking this one step further, if we look at something like a Buck 110, when you're opening it, your using "centrifugal force", it's just your hand that's applying it where you're grasping the blade. The law doesn't say that the centrifugal force has to be applied without touching the blade.

Scary stuff.
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Besides the spyderdrop, the fact is that a Delica can be flicked open quite easily after a little practice even just by holding the handle. Even though it's a lockback. So as far as I'm concerned, the Delica is clearly not legal for carry in NYS.

Worse, as Sharp Phil noted, is the "dangerous knife" language which pretty much leaves the discretion to the officer. Shouldn't be that way IMO.
Laws in this country are supposed to be clear on their face, not unconstitutionally "vague" or "overbroad".

So you've really got to toe the line carefully in NYS when it comes to knife carry.

When in NYS, I tend to carry a non-locking traditional folder like a slimline trapper or a toothpick.
If I do carry a locking knife, it's very small and innocuous; something like the A.G. Russell Titanium.
 
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I carry the pretty much what I like to carry, I leave auto's at home though. Being a clean cut conservative adult living in the sticks my interaction with local law enforcement is near zero. Also helps to be on local fire dept..
 
The Syderco drop open was the start of the NYC view of holding the blade and flicking the handle open. It has held up in court in NY over and over.
 
tom19176 said:
The Syderco drop open was the start of the NYC view of holding the blade and flicking the handle open. It has held up in court in NY over and over.
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I wonder how many officers slice the tip of their thumb off or send the knife flying out of their hand by trying to do this? If individual rights will not motivate legislative change, can officer safety?
 
Thanks Tom. Scary stuff. Interesting part of that article confirmed the second part of my concern - officers opening a blade by hand was considered centrifugal force.

Since this whole "gravity knife" issue is the new big concern of mine, I played around with my Subcom this morning, and eventhough I have the pivot screw cranked down relatively tightly, with difficulty, I can get it to open and lock with a Spyderdrop, and even easier by holding the blade in my hand in such a way that the blade flicks outwards - which opens the knife into a useless position, but it's open and locked nonetheless. And opening my Leatherman Charge this way is no problem.

Looks like my next knife will be a UKPK - which can only be fit into the even more vague "dangerous" knife category.
 
Any knife you carry will get you in trouble if the officer decides he wants to mess with you. It's just a fact of life that those in power allow their whims to affect your life.
 
wintermute said:
Thanks Tom. Scary stuff. Interesting part of that article confirmed the second part of my concern - officers opening a blade by hand was considered centrifugal force.

Since this whole "gravity knife" issue is the new big concern of mine, I played around with my Subcom this morning, and eventhough I have the pivot screw cranked down relatively tightly, with difficulty, I can get it to open and lock with a Spyderdrop, and even easier by holding the blade in my hand in such a way that the blade flicks outwards - which opens the knife into a useless position, but it's open and locked nonetheless. And opening my Leatherman Charge this way is no problem.

Looks like my next knife will be a UKPK - which can only be fit into the even more vague "dangerous" knife category.
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Just get a non-locking SAK. No knife is more sheeple friendly than a SAK.
 
suedeface said:
F*ck New York City and the NYPD. Fight some real crime A**holes...
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As much as I respect your sentiment, you're being a tad naive and sort of immature.

The gravity knife definition is from the NYS penal code and is applicable statewide. NYC just happens to pursue those cases with a lot more vigor than other jurisdictions. Of course, other jurisdictions could come to speed whenever they feel like it.

A vast majority of the criminal posession of a weapon convictions that are appealed are search/siezure cases. Sometimes, the searches are found to be unreasonable. Oftentimes, they are upheld. Regardless, oftentimes, the accused did something to bring attention to himself- whether it was carrying a visible knife, being involved with drugs, committing a violent crime, etc...

There was a time when the culture was different. Knives used to be more socially acceptable than they are now. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, most of the non-NYC cases were tack-ons to something else. From what Tom19176 has posted in previous threads, that's the way things were in NYC back in the day.

It's hard for me to fault the police for enforcing the law. It's their duty. This is something that needs to be changed legislatively.

I hate to get political, but I am going to editorialize. Even though I am a registered (and active) Republican I was very concerned that Rudy Giulliani would be the GOP presidential nominee. However, even I acknowledge the benefit of the Giulliani war on crime, which really did a lot to clean up New York's streets. Even though petty quality of life crimes are not homicides the stepped up enforcement resulted in a culture that rejected the criminal element. Similarly, the stepped up enforcment on knives was an unfortunate side affect of the effort to crack down on an armed criminal element that was responsible for the more serious crimes.
 
Punishing law-abiding citizens for possessing ordinary pocket knives in no way increases quality of life.
 
mp510, you are correct that until the last few years knife enforcement was always an add on charge to another crime. The one and only time anyone who end up with the sole charge of possession of a gravity/dangerous knife was went a armed robbery occurred and the victim was a tourist, who did not want to press charges due to not being able to return for trial and or fear. The knife in those cases was recovered during a lawful search and arresst of a armed robbery suspect, and the officer could still charge the suspect with the weapons possession, as this was sometimes the only standing charge left against criminals who wisely chose tourists as their prey.
As for Rudy, he wasn't all that bad. Koch was the one who passed the NYC Admin Law that banned public carry and under 4" blades, but it was rarely enforced. During Dinkin's term, the criminals ruled the city, so Rudy had to bring back law and order. I will stick to knife facts, and add that under Rudy there was still not too much of a change in the knife law enforcement, as it was not considered a "good" arrest still and the Transit task force officers did not spend their days looking for pocket clip or knife sheaths on persons entering the subway. That really all started with the present " Mayor Mike"....Now there are two reasons for this- first he is totally anti weapons, and second many crimes have been greatly reduced, but the army ( 40,000 sworn officers) is still judged on the amount of arrest they make instead of the fact that the city has become very safe. Rudy most likely would not have been to bad, but little Mike....run away......
 
I don't know if I explained my centrifugal force concern well enough. Since the NYS law does not say that the centrifugal force has to be applied without touching the blade, "normal" opening (like opening a traditional slipjoint) of something like a Buck 110 could fall under the gravity knife description since you are applying "centrifugal force" with your fingers to open the blade.
 
This may have been discussed before, but would a UK Pen Knife technically be in compliance with the goofy enforcement of NYS law because it doesn't lock? And further, the new Spyderco Urban also does not have a lock and appears to have a blade smaller than the UKPK. So would either of these be OK to carry in places even as restrictive as NYC? Thoughts?
 
PV29 said:
This may have been discussed before, but would a UK Pen Knife technically be in compliance with the goofy enforcement of NYS law because it doesn't lock? And further, the new Spyderco Urban also does not have a lock and appears to have a blade smaller than the UKPK. So would either of these be OK to carry in places even as restrictive as NYC? Thoughts?
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The UKPK is legal to carry in New York State and City. Just make sure that you carry it completely concealed (in NYC), so you don't get popped for the administrative code/visible carry violation. I'm not too familiar with the Spyderco Urban, but from the pictures (and descriptions) that I've seen- it looks like it should be good to go- just a regular slipjoint in a more modern style.

What I would have concerns about is something like the Spyderco T-Mag, which really seems to be cutting it close- because the blade is held open by a earth magnet. If the earth magnet they use is like the others I've seen (like the set I have on my fridge) then I would steer clear of it. It's not quite a lock- but it's not orthodox either.
 
There's really no point in worrying about all these specific definitions and designs. You could be charged with a crime for carrying absolutely any knife if the officer wants to charge you; it all comes down to his whim and your conduct.
 
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