Spyderco Mule initiative. May Kershaw join?

[nozh2002]

I think you guys perfectly aware of Spyderco Mule initiative. It will be very nice to see you join this effort. Made same Mule - Kershaw Mule with your steels? like Sandvic 14C26N, CPM S110V or composite blades?

Can you negotiate this with Sal - it will be great knife community effort!

...And we will have excellent knives from all best steels from all favorite manufacturers!

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. This is what I am talking about:

 

[jonnymac44]

We already have a Kershaw "Mule team" project. It's called "what's the next variation of the Shallot going to be????"

Seems to be working out just fine, thanks.

 

[iamtoast]

LOL, I can't say I can disagree with that statement. And at the price of the current mule team on spyderco's website I think its a nice deal, you get a sweet complete knife.

 

[2brothers]

If that's what the handles will look like, I'm not the least bit interested.
Looks like cartoon dragon skin. IMO

mike

 

[riffraff]

No, no, they're dragon scales!

Get it?

Huh?

 

[Thomas W]

I think you guys perfectly aware of Spyderco Mule initiative. It will be very nice to see you join this effort. Made same Mule - Kershaw Mule with your steels? like Sandvic 14C26N, CPM S110V or composite blades?

Can you negotiate this with Sal - it will be great knife community effort!

...And we will have excellent knives from all best steels from all favorite manufacturers!

We are aware of the Spyderco Mule's, and think that it is a project that is quite informative and a benefit to the knife community.

Haven't talked to Sal to get his feelings on the possibility of Kershaw variations. Pretty neat idea.

 

[No_b00st]

We already have a Kershaw "Mule team" project. It's called "what's the next variation of the Shallot going to be????"

Seems to be working out just fine, thanks.

let's not be haters here. Spyderco mules made from kershaw prop. steels would be fascinating. Well, I don't think a Sandvik one would be - 13c26 is a decent mid-level steel but the point of the mule program is to test out untested steels.

I think a mule in S110v would be very interesting to me.

 

[The Mastiff]

I'd love a S110V steel version. It's one of the most intriguing steels on the market currently. Sandavik 19C27 would be an intresting mule also. Heck, any of the sandavik steels ran hot would be nice.

If that's what the handles will look like, I'm not the least bit interested.
Looks like cartoon dragon skin. IMO

Ease up. The guy took the time to make those himself. They came out better than my paracord scales or tape & cardboard sheath. As long as they work, and make the owner happy that's all that counts. Joe

 

[spiralarchitect]

let's not be haters here. Spyderco mules made from kershaw prop. steels would be fascinating. Well, I don't think a Sandvik one would be - 13c26 is a decent mid-level steel but the point of the mule program is to test out untested steels.

I think a mule in S110v would be very interesting to me.

Kershaw's proprietary steel is 14C28N Sandvik and I think your dismissal of it as inconsequential to something like the Mule program shows some serious wrong headed thinking. If this program really takes off I wouldn't consider it a success until they included the vast majority of the most (and by most I mean maybe top 5 by sales volume) commonly available cutlery steels in addition to the exotics. If you are churning out test mules with the exact same geometry every time you have to use more common steels in that cookie cutter form to be able to benchmark the performance of these "exotic" steels. I am actually shocked that Spyderco hasn't produced a VG10 mule so the masses have something familiar to use as a starting point. Without being able to benchmark the performance of the exotic steels you have nothing but a bunch of exotic steels that you pit head to head against one another. My question is how would they fare against S30V or (insert steel most people in the US market have used here) with the exact same geometry? Wouldn't you like to be able to say that a steel is better or worse for some parameter than the 14C28N Zing you put in your pocket every day?

 

[Dog of War]

For about $10 more than the cost of a Spyderco mule (IIRC the mules are $40) you can buy a 14C28N Leek ... and then you have a complete knife, no need to add a handle (or sheath if you want to actually carry it ) so it's ready to go whether for testing or as a user.

I've kind of wondered about the mule "program" ... with the first run in 52100 I only recall seeing one user who actually tried to do any kind of systematic testing. I saw plenty of threads where guys had installed handles -- some very nice, BTW -- but don't see how this necessarily winds up giving much feedback on the steels. In fact my guess is that the majority of these become safe queens to some degree. Another concern with the mule program is the heat treat, with these being one-time-only short runs, it seems the chance is good for less than optimal heat treat on some, and there's no real plan I've seen to refine heat treat or address these issues. So bottom line, I wonder just how much useful information will come out of it -- not that I don't wish them all the best, I certainly do, it just doesn't seem like the original purpose indicated is going to be served.

With all the great options Kershaw has, and IMO at very reasonable prices, it makes a lot more sense to buy a S110V Shallot or whatever you're interested in, and give it a go.

Besides it just bugs me, having a Spyderhole in a fixed blade.

 

[jonnymac44]

let's not be haters here. Spyderco mules made from kershaw prop. steels would be fascinating. Well, I don't think a Sandvik one would be - 13c26 is a decent mid-level steel but the point of the mule program is to test out untested steels.

I think a mule in S110v would be very interesting to me.

I'm not being a hater at all No_boost. I own more than my fair share of Spyderco blades and respect their work very much. My point to Nozh was that I wanted him to take a look at Kershaw Shallots and what they've started doing, offering up the design in a variety of great steels. I understand the whole concept of the Mule Project and thinks it's a great idea. If anything, I was being critical of Nozh due to the fact that I often disagree with how he goes about things, but I had no intention of bagging on Spyderco:thumbup:

Jon

 

[SPXTrader]

Kershaw's proprietary steel is 14C28N Sandvik and I think your dismissal of it as inconsequential to something like the Mule program shows some serious wrong headed thinking. If this program really takes off I wouldn't consider it a success until they included the vast majority of the most (and by most I mean maybe top 5 by sales volume) commonly available cutlery steels in addition to the exotics. If you are churning out test mules with the exact same geometry every time you have to use more common steels in that cookie cutter form to be able to benchmark the performance of these "exotic" steels. I am actually shocked that Spyderco hasn't produced a VG10 mule so the masses have something familiar to use as a starting point. Without being able to benchmark the performance of the exotic steels you have nothing but a bunch of exotic steels that you pit head to head against one another. My question is how would they fare against S30V or (insert steel most people in the US market have used here) with the exact same geometry? Wouldn't you like to be able to say that a steel is better or worse for some parameter than the 14C28N Zing you put in your pocket every day?

For about $10 more than the cost of a Spyderco mule (IIRC the mules are $40) you can buy a 14C28N Leek ... and then you have a complete knife, no need to add a handle (or sheath if you want to actually carry it ) so it's ready to go whether for testing or as a user.

I've kind of wondered about the mule "program" ... with the first run in 52100 I only recall seeing one user who actually tried to do any kind of systematic testing. I saw plenty of threads where guys had installed handles -- some very nice, BTW -- but don't see how this necessarily winds up giving much feedback on the steels. In fact my guess is that the majority of these become safe queens to some degree. Another concern with the mule program is the heat treat, with these being one-time-only short runs, it seems the chance is good for less than optimal heat treat on some, and there's no real plan I've seen to refine heat treat or address these issues. So bottom line, I wonder just how much useful information will come out of it -- not that I don't wish them all the best, I certainly do, it just doesn't seem like the original purpose indicated is going to be served.

With all the great options Kershaw has, and IMO at very reasonable prices, it makes a lot more sense to buy a S110V Shallot or whatever you're interested in, and give it a go.

Besides it just bugs me, having a Spyderhole in a fixed blade.

Very well said. I don't think I could add anything else to this that already hasn't been stated.

 

[nozh2002]

I'm not being a hater at all No_boost. I own more than my fair share of Spyderco blades and respect their work very much. My point to Nozh was that I wanted him to take a look at Kershaw Shallots and what they've started doing, offering up the design in a variety of great steels. I understand the whole concept of the Mule Project and thinks it's a great idea. If anything, I was being critical of Nozh due to the fact that I often disagree with how he goes about things, but I had no intention of bagging on Spyderco:thumbup:

Jon

Shallot is great knife but:
1. It require regrind before I can sharpen it to whittling hair sharp - which is additional few hours of heavy sharpening.
2. This thin metak handle tear up my hand when I do 200 1/2" manila rope cuts.
3. It should be community effort not propritary.

I remember way befor Mule program were announced and this forum started and way before this childish Kershaw Mafia take it over to make impossible (or at least uncomfortable) to discuss anything here - Thomas sad that they will do many runs of SpecBumps with different steel. Firts was CPM 154, then CPM S30V, also it was Sandvic 13C26, but nothing more unfortunately. Now it is not Kershaw but Spyderco known for this effort. I do not think that competing here will make any good to community, I think Kershaw better join it.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[J_Curd]

For about $10 more than the cost of a Spyderco mule (IIRC the mules are $40) you can buy a 14C28N Leek....
....Besides it just bugs me, having a Spyderhole in a fixed blade.

Looks like the Mules are $70 on their site.

+1 on the Spyderhole on a fixed blade.

 

[AF]

The first Mule in 52100 was $40 and the second in M4 is $70. The price will be different based on the steel.
These come with a typically thin Spyderco edge.

 

[J_Curd]

Vassilli - Once you start changing the grinds and profiles on the knife doesnt that defeat the purpose of having a stock design to evaluate from?

 

[nozh2002]

Vassilli - Once you start changing the grinds and profiles on the knife doesnt that defeat the purpose of having a stock design to evaluate from?

I was talking about Shallot not Mule - Mule need to be resharpened, did not whittle hair NIB, but from 25 knives I tested it require less resharpening then any other.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[jonnymac44]

Shallot is great knife but:
1. It require regrind before I can sharpen it to whittling hair sharp - which is additional few hours of heavy sharpening.
2. This thin metak handle tear up my hand when I do 200 1/2" manila rope cuts.
3. It should be community effort not propritary.

I remember way befor Mule program were announced and this forum started and way before this childish Kershaw Mafia take it over to make impossible (or at least uncomfortable) to discuss anything here - Thomas sad that they will do many runs of SpecBumps with different steel. Firts was CPM 154, then CPM S30V, also it was Sandvic 13C26, but nothing more unfortunately. Now it is not Kershaw but Spyderco known for this effort. I do not think that competing here will make any good to community, I think Kershaw better join it.

Thanks, Vassili.

Speaking for myself only, I am NOT being childish, and I don't ever recall making it impossible for anyone to carry on a reasonable discussion on this forum. What I do find childish is one person, who is not involved in manufacturing, thinking that they know how to direct the operations of a knife company. Kershaw "better join it"? Whatever you say, boss. You accuse some of this forum's regulars of making discussion uncomfortable, but you are one of the most aggressive posters I know of.

Lastly, as you yourself have pointed out, the Mule Team Project was about testing out different steels to see how well they perform under tough use, edge retention, chipping, and so forth. I think the Shallot variations can also be used to learn about different steels in this way. You mention that the Shallot would require a regrind in order to whittle hair and so it's not a viable knife for a Mule Team type of experiment? I don't believe that Sal's main concern in starting up the project was to see how many different steels can whittle hair, but that seems to be all you care about.

Sorry if I sound grumpy, but this whole hair whittling fascination is getting old.

Jon

 

[SPXTrader]

Shallot is great knife but:
1. It require regrind before I can sharpen it to whittling hair sharp - which is additional few hours of heavy sharpening.

Having a hair whittling edge is something that is a personal preference. Kershaw produces knives in volume and as such, production dictates an utilitarian edge, which Kershaw provides.

2. This thin metak handle tear up my hand when I do 200 1/2" manila rope cuts.

Again, most Kershaw owners aren't going to do the repetitive test you do. The Shallot is Kershaw's version of Ken Onion's Dead Sexy. It was made as close to the custom as possible, with Ken's blessing.

3. It should be community effort not proprietary.

I don't understand, unless you want all manufacturers to produce the exact same product. As I mentioned, the Shallot is a design of Ken's custom. Why should that not be a proprietary offering?

I remember way befor Mule program were announced and this forum started and way before this childish Kershaw Mafia take it over to make impossible (or at least uncomfortable) to discuss anything here...

It seems you have an issue with our sub-forum group. You have taken the opportunity to mention many times how "childish" we are here. Do you have the same issues with the Hogs on the Busse sub-forum? And besides, this group has never had issues with anyone's personality, let alone yours. You are free to post your thoughts (as you have done) and are also free to ignore any replies that you think are personal attacks. I haven't seen any attacks against you personally Vassili.

Thomas sad that they will do many runs of SpecBumps with different steel. Firts was CPM 154, then CPM S30V, also it was Sandvic 13C26, but nothing more unfortunately.

The market changes. Kershaw changes too. As for "nothing more unfortunately", have you forgotten that Kershaw introduced the composite blade? How many other makers have taken the time and put forth the expense to develop this market? I can answer that for you: none. They have used the composite blade on designs by Ken Onion and Tim Galyean. They also brought to us the Hawk lock, designed by custom makers Grant and Gavin Hawk, once only found on their customs. And then there is the little matter of Kershaw's exclusive use of Sandvik's 14C28N. No one else offers this in a production folder. And you won't see it on a custom, either. This is the definition of "proprietary". It's exclusive to Kershaw.

Now it is not Kershaw but Spyderco known for this effort.

I see nothing in my reply above that Spyderco is known for. If you can provide facts to argue this statement, we are waiting to see them.

I do not think that competing here will make any good to community, I think Kershaw better join it.

Thanks, Vassili.

Competition is a great thing. It is the leaps of steels, blade technology, and collaborations with custom makers Kershaw has made over the competition that has bettered the community. The others now have something to set their standards by. Kershaw has raised the bar, and we'll see if the others are able to step up.

Kershaw needs to join nothing. The rest need to catch up, if possible.

 

[iamtoast]

We are aware of the Spyderco Mule's, and think that it is a project that is quite informative and a benefit to the knife community.

Haven't talked to Sal to get his feelings on the possibility of Kershaw variations. Pretty neat idea.

Perhaps the best end to this 'conversation' is the above post. I will say one other thing about Spyderco's Mule Team knives, it is amazing to me that people simply put on some scales then sell them for 5x the initial price. Wow!