Stabilizing Variations

R

Rovert

Joined
Apr 22, 2000
Messages
94
Howdy, guys. Back again. Hope y'all can help.

I received a bunch of wood for a project that was supposed to have been stabilized, but when working it, there are still unfilled voids - or air pockets - within the wood grain that should have been displaced by plastic, but aren't. I'll try to post a picture later, if I can, so you can see what I'm talking about.

That got me to remembering that there are different techniques / methods of stabilizing, and different formulas, depending on what type of wood is in question.

What I was hoping to receive is a polymerized block of wood that has no air in it at all. Unfortunately, I've gone through two panels, and so far both have air pockets in the wood that have not been filled by the plastic.

Can someone tell me what type of stabilization I should ask for, or what type of technique/materials to look for when specifying what I need? What terms or trade "lingo" do I need to use, to get what the project calls for? It always helps to be able to communicate in the language of your vendors.

So far, the wood is not turning out to be usable, and that presents a significant problem for this particular project, since there's only so much of it to be had.

Thanks in advance!
 
Rovert, that's really unfortunate about your wood voids. I would contact your supplier and get some answers from him, and send the wood back for a refund. I use almost entirely stabilized wood now, and haven't had a problem except for some buckeye burl scales that smelled like they needed some more drying time. They worked just fine, though. I just gave them some more cure time in the shop. You shouldn't have had any voids in your wood.
 
I'm not sure your expectations are entirely realistic. Stabilizing will fill small gaps or voids but certainly not anything of much size. Some woods that are already sound and solid come out as you describe and others - such as dymondwood are of a structure and density that they just soak it up (Though I once found a void in a piece of dymondwood too). The professional stabilant starts out water thin - that's why it penetrates so well. It also means that some of the stabilant can drain out before the catylization gets under way. Done right, the wood will be stable (I'm going to hear arguments about that) but not necessarily without voids. I fill small voids either with sawdust / epoxy or with super glue gel depending on the application.
 
Do like Rob said and fill the voids with super glue...it will remain transparent and probably provide the look you are going for.
 
Get a gap filling kit like this one from K&G. There are several thicknesses, and an accelerant to speed setup. Lots of knifemakers use it.
http://www.knifeandgun.com/catalog/adhesive_186655_products.htm

Scroll down a ways, and you'll see it. Store it in your house for longer lasting effects, in fact, it's a good idea to store epoxy in the house too. Temperature extremes are not real good for unused epoxy, and adhesives.:eek::D
 
I have a question on the same subject. I cut a few burls off some trees on my property and was wondering if anyone could tell me about the stabilizing process, I hate to ask such a rookie question but I'm new to knifemaking and want to do as much as I can myself,[Thats what I love about knife making], I dont have a kiln and I did'nt know if its even somthing that you have to do in the stabilizing process. Also what are the products I should look for. I tried to do some surfing on the net about it but I got more confused tha educated, so I came back to old faithfull.:confused:
 
Stabilizing is not meant to fill large voids. It stabilizes the wood to minimize changes. If you find a large void pack it with saw dust from the block and then add superglue. The finished wood looks great. I wish there was a way to inspect for internal voids.

Rovert,

I don't think you bought the wood from us but I'm happy to help. If you do not want to fill the voids yourself, send it to us and we will fill them for you and send the wood back.
 
Mikethemick said:
I have a question on the same subject. I cut a few burls off some trees on my property and was wondering if anyone could tell me about the stabilizing process, I hate to ask such a rookie question but I'm new to knifemaking and want to do as much as I can myself,[Thats what I love about knife making], I dont have a kiln and I did'nt know if its even somthing that you have to do in the stabilizing process. Also what are the products I should look for. I tried to do some surfing on the net about it but I got more confused tha educated, so I came back to old faithfull.:confused:
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Stabilizing is done(this is just a base descriptionBTW)by putting the wood in a tank containing liquid acrylic, the hatches are battened and vacuum is applied for a specified amount of time, which draws the air out of both the tank, and the wood. After a time, the vacuum is released, and positive pressure is applied to finish the job. That is released, the wood baked in an oven to solidify the acrylic, and viola, stabilized wood.

Call Mike at WSSI, and he'll be glad to give you more information as to what can, and cannot be done with this process, as well as prices.
He's a nice guy!
http://www.stabilizedwood.com/

Edited to add; Welcome to Bladeforums, Mike! Enjoy!:D
 
Before any wood can be stabilized it has to be dry - 10% or less in moisture content.The burls Mikethemick mentioned will have to air dry for one to five years before stabilizing.A quality moisture meter is a must if you are going to have wood stabilized.Working with wood is not a fast thing.Most exotic and rare woods that we get for our handles were cut last century,some before many of these newbies were born.I have wood in the loft that has been drying for 15 years.And I have a 5 foot by 2 foot walnut section to carve a statue out of that was cut in 1869.Its probably dry enough to carve now.
 
Boiling turned bowls is not going to work on handle blanks.They are working with thin(1/4 to 1/2") cross sections.Boiling wood bursts the cell walls and makes the wood more plastic(not to be confused with plastic/acrylic),thus avoiding splitting when the wood warps during drying.It also "cooks" the wood.As the kiln drying article said,kiln drying won't work on most good hardwoods and exotics.Also,wood workers are shooting for 18% to 20% moisture for their wood.Stabilizing people consider that amount soggy wet.There is dry and then there is DRY.Most wood that is sent to be stabilized,and warps,is dry to the touch but too wet to stabilize.
 
I'm not sure your expectations are entirely realistic. Stabilizing will fill small gaps or voids but certainly not anything of much size.
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Yes, it is possible that what I'm thinking of is only because my experience with other stabilized wood may have been with species that take well to the process. In this case, the walnut in question seems to have areas of air in it, possibly from disease, or just how the tree grew.

But even in the regions where the wood is solid, the polymer does not seem to have penetrated the pores, or filled entirely. It's not the "block of plastic" that I was expecting, or have seen in times past, nor does it polish up to bring out the chatoyance in the wood, as I've seen with other stabilized woods.

I just wonder if the techique, formula, or equipment being used is correct for the wood in question. And the problem in this case is that altough I could use a filler, the end product will be laser engraved, and I don't know how that will react with the filler.
 
bladsmth said:
Boiling turned bowls is not going to work on handle blanks.They are working with thin(1/4 to 1/2") cross sections.Boiling wood bursts the cell walls and makes the wood more plastic(not to be confused with plastic/acrylic),thus avoiding splitting when the wood warps during drying.It also "cooks" the wood.As the kiln drying article said,kiln drying won't work on most good hardwoods and exotics.Also,wood workers are shooting for 18% to 20% moisture for their wood.Stabilizing people consider that amount soggy wet.There is dry and then there is DRY.Most wood that is sent to be stabilized,and warps,is dry to the touch but too wet to stabilize.
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You pick one example of five to make a negative example of. Look at Judith Mattarts section on kiln drying. I think she knew more about drying wood than all of us put together, also the microwave process has worked well for quite a few knifemakers.
You just pick what works.
BTW, anyone that sends in 1/2 " sections, and not blocks to be stabilized is just wasting their money, material, and time.
 
Mike Hull said:
BTW, anyone that sends in 1/2 " sections, and not blocks to be stabilized is just wasting their money, material, and time.
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Mike, could you expand on this a bit? In what way do the dimensions affect the process? Are you suggesting that we go either thicker, or thinner?
 
IMO, the best way to have things stabilized is in blocks. Then you cut what you need from them.

Wood is unstable no matter what the moisture content, or lack of is. Thinner pieces will warp sure as heck. Even thick blocks of some types of wood can warp, but with thin,you don't have the leeway to fix the problem.

With blocks, it's a simple matter to just cut what you want, even if the block warped a bit. Or, if it's an oversized handle block, you have room to sand it straight again before you install, and finish grind.
You also get better prices if you send 8# or more at a time for stabilization.
 
In her section on kiln drying ,she points out that some hardwoods and exotics do not kiln dry easily.Most dealers in hardwoods and exotics air dry for quite some time before attempting to kiln dry.As she said in her article,even then, kiln drying of these woods needs to be more like accelerated air drying than standard kiln drying.Microwaving wood cooks the lignin and ruptures cell membranes.While there are many hobbyist who do it,you will find few,if any,professional woodworkers who use microwaving.It usually will only dry to a shallow depth.For stabilizing it needs to be dry all the way through,and that takes time.I agree that blocks of 3" thickness by 6" width,by 12"length are the best size to stabilize when possible.
All I am trying to point out is that there is no good replacement for taking the necessary time and doing it properly.Too many of the new makers want to make their first blade on Monday and have the knife finished by Tuesday.Make a sword as their second attempt,with a perfect hamon and sori - that should take up Wednesday thru Friday.And then master mosaic damascus on Saturday.Sunday will be for starting their new $50K per year knife business.
 
bladsmth said:
In her section on kiln drying ,she points out that some hardwoods and exotics do not kiln dry easily.Most dealers in hardwoods and exotics air dry for quite some time before attempting to kiln dry.As she said in her article,even then, kiln drying of these woods needs to be more like accelerated air drying than standard kiln drying.Microwaving wood cooks the lignin and ruptures cell membranes.While there are many hobbyist who do it,you will find few,if any,professional woodworkers who use microwaving.It usually will only dry to a shallow depth.For stabilizing it needs to be dry all the way through,and that takes time.I agree that blocks of 3" thickness by 6" width,by 12"length are the best size to stabilize when possible.
All I am trying to point out is that there is no good replacement for taking the necessary time and doing it properly.Too many of the new makers want to make their first blade on Monday and have the knife finished by Tuesday.Make a sword as their second attempt,with a perfect hamon and sori - that should take up Wednesday thru Friday.And then master mosaic damascus on Saturday.Sunday will be for starting their new $50K per year knife business.
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stacy
just for my interest, how long you been making? :confused:
 
I've been making knives again for the past five years.I made them from about 1960 until the 80's.I have been a woodworker and metal worker for 40 years.I have been a goldsmith for the last 30 years.In the late 60's through the early 70's I was a research chemist for Va. Chemicals (formerly Va. Smelting).
I stabilize several hundred pounds of wood a year.I attached a photo of three cabinets of wood and knives (out of eight).The orange boxes and stuff is a 100 pound lot I sending to Mike at WSSI this week.
 
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