stablisisating wood

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leroyk3

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I am just getting to stablizing wood. I have built my vacum setup and have tryed several different things. first i tried polyurathane and then wood hardner. Iam not sure what to use. the wood hardner turned almost jelly after about 15 minutes.
I can pull about 27 inches of vac. is that enough. and how long does it have to be under vacum.
my main ? is what solution works best.
Thanks for any info you can give me, leroyk
 
Use the search and look for "stabilizing wood". My experience has been it is not worth trying to do it yourself.
 
The pros charge about $13/pound with $9/pound for 10 pounds or more. That is hard to beat. They do a MUCH better job than I can do. I understand there is alternate vacuum and high pressure with heating also involved and exotic materials and lots of experience. The pros are not all equal. I found the guy in Weiser, Id does a tremendous job at dying but barely adequate at stabilizing. I found the same with the big outfit in Iowa. The guy in Eugene does tremendous stabilizing but does not do it for outside parties. The best I have found is K&G in Arizona. They are also VERY quick.

Here is how I judge them. I might add that I make 1911 pistol grips and not knives, but that also means I need about 100 treated scales a month to work with. After shaping on a bandsaw and stationary belt sander (I end with 320 grit), I use a hand finish sander down to 1200 grit. I then go to the buffer. Now at this point, a good stabilizing job will result in a good polish. A poor or average job will need finish added. I might use an undercoat of Tru-oil rubbed smooth then finish with a quick spray coat of Deft which dries in seconds and is quite hard. I prefer NOT to have to use finish.

I don't want to discourage you from experimenting, but this is what I have thus far discovered. Best to your experimentation.
 
Peter gave great advice.
Several years ago I thought I would start stabilizing wood. I tried every product available over the counter and was never satisfied with the results.
Eventually I started buying resinol 90c using a vacuum/pressure setup and finally heat curing. I got where I could do a good job stabilizing some woods. Everything reacts differently. Some woods had to stay in the tank for a couple weeks under vacuum and pressure before having complete penetration. Then when you do the heat cure, some woods will expell the solution while others will hold it in.
The chemicals are expensive, it takes a long time and makes a big mess.

Now I use K&G for all my stabilizing. The cost to have them do all the work is less than I was spending for chemicals alone.
They do a better job than I was able to do. Now I can focus on what I do best......turning big pieces of wood into little pieces of wood and making sawdust.
 
PeterB said:
I found the guy in Weiser, Id does a tremendous job at dying but barely adequate at stabilizing. I found the same with the big outfit in Iowa. .
Click to expand...

So you're saying that WSSI does a "barely adequate" job of stabilizing ?
 
I have nothing against anyone in the business, but their (WSSI) treated wood requires me to use finish afterwards which means it was not as deeply treated as K&G. They DO a great job at dying. K&G does not do 2-color dying. WSSI also has a wide selection of materials they have treated. Their prices are also fair. However, I no longer buy from them because I want material to which I do NOT have to add finish. If they improve their process, I would love to have an additional source.
 
PeterB said:
I have nothing against anyone in the business, but their (WSSI) treated wood requires me to use finish afterwards which means it was not as deeply treated as K&G. They DO a great job at dying. K&G does not do 2-color dying. WSSI also has a wide selection of materials they have treated. Their prices are also fair. However, I no longer buy from them because I want material to which I do NOT have to add finish. If they improve their process, I would love to have an additional source.
Click to expand...

Wow I'd love to see some examples of the materials on a kitchen scale, side by side. I have pictures of a piece of redwood burl that someone sent me in a trade, they said was stabilized with Res90, done in a "homemade" vac set up and my stabilized block from WSSI (same dimensions) was more than double the weight. Obviously the stabilant did not penetrate the wood, and take on the weight. It was clearly evident on the kitchen scale. That redwood burl was sent back to the seller by the way.

I have used both services (K/G and WSSI) extensively. Apparently, you measure how far the stabilizer penetrated the wood because you think you have to add a "finish"? I have tons of handles I have finished that were done by WSSI and never once have I had to add "finish". By the way, K&G does double dye, but just not for the general public, but I believe you can buy their blocks directly however. Many makers here believe WSSI is the "gold standard" in the industry, and they send thousands of pounds of exotics to them every year. Maybe you should let them know that WSSI might not be "deeply treating" their wood and they might get a "barely adequate" stabilizing job?
 
PeterB said:
The pros charge about $13/pound with $9/pound for 10 pounds or more. That is hard to beat. They do a MUCH better job than I can do. I understand there is alternate vacuum and high pressure with heating also involved and exotic materials and lots of experience. The pros are not all equal. I found the guy in Weiser, Id does a tremendous job at dying but barely adequate at stabilizing. I found the same with the big outfit in Iowa. The guy in Eugene does tremendous stabilizing but does not do it for outside parties. The best I have found is K&G in Arizona. They are also VERY quick.

Here is how I judge them. I might add that I make 1911 pistol grips and not knives, but that also means I need about 100 treated scales a month to work with. After shaping on a bandsaw and stationary belt sander (I end with 320 grit), I use a hand finish sander down to 1200 grit. I then go to the buffer. Now at this point, a good stabilizing job will result in a good polish. A poor or average job will need finish added. I might use an undercoat of Tru-oil rubbed smooth then finish with a quick spray coat of Deft which dries in seconds and is quite hard. I prefer NOT to have to use finish.

I don't want to discourage you from experimenting, but this is what I have thus far discovered. Best to your experimentation.
Click to expand...

"I found the guy in Weiser, Id does a tremendous job at dying but barely adequate at stabilizing. I found the same with the big outfit in Iowa. The guy in Eugene does tremendous stabilizing but does not do it for outside parties. The best I have found is K&G in Arizona. They are also VERY quick."

Go ahead and name names, who are you talking about ?
 
I am only giving recomendations, not trying to knock anyone. I suggest anyone who does not agree with me send samples of the same piece of wood to whomever they wish, then finish them the same way and judge for yourself. I have high standards, being a custom gunmaker and requiring perfection in finishes. If you don't, fine. A knife handle is very small and forgiving. I hand make over 100 1911 grips a month by out of the best of the best and I don't want anying looking less than perfect. I can give no better recomendation than try several and judge for yourself. If you do, I expect you will change your mind.
 
PeterB said:
I am only giving recomendations, not trying to knock anyone. I suggest anyone who does not agree with me send samples of the same piece of wood to whomever they wish, then finish them the same way and judge for yourself. I have high standards, being a custom gunmaker and requiring perfection in finishes. If you don't, fine. A knife handle is very small and forgiving. I hand make over 100 1911 grips a month by out of the best of the best and I don't want anying looking less than perfect. I can give no better recomendation than try several and judge for yourself. If you do, I expect you will change your mind.
Click to expand...

Yeah you're right. I could careless about "finishes"....... The stabilized product from WSSI doesn't need a finish that will ride on the top of the wood. Simply sand to high grit and buff. Period. Ive read several of your other posts as well, where your giving people advice on how oil and various "finishes" will "penetrate" the wood. Lets be clear, these things ride on the surface, and a simple scratch test will reveal that depth. Maybe you should try cutting one of these pieces and in half and actually measuring the level of penetration.

As far as trying to "knock anyone", well its a little late for that. You do know that K&G and WSSI used to be the same company back in the day right? You also didn't read what I wrote about using both of those services extensively, so your advice of "trying them" really has little bearing here. Its also funny that you think because a piece is "very small its forgiving". A smaller piece of material means you have very little room to screw up, so again your logic makes no sense.

I think you should address the weight of the piece of material. Maybe some facts to go with all your opinions. The stabilant used at WSSI is very heavy, and will weigh more. I've tested it several times against many others who offer stabilizing services, by taking actual weighted measurements of the finished material. If your using blocks cut from the same stock then that would indicate to me there was greater penetration of the stabilant. Pretty sure Mike at WSSI has performed a few tests to prove he gets 100% penetration.

I'm not sure why your targeting WSSI, but you also don't mention the moisture content and how it pertains to stabilizing, or how WSSI will test and dry your material if needed prior to stabilzing it. While I don't think theres any stabilizing service thats perfect out there, to thow WSSI under the bus and say "they don't get full penetration and they barely do an adequate job" is absolutely NOT true. Especially when its not based on measurable facts. I think they call that libel.

Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).[1]
 
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OK, deep breaths ,Everybody !
In....Out...In....Out
There, now doesn't that feel better.

Larry and Peter both have favorite processors and different feelings about what the wood should be. Good, that is why there are more than one wood stabilizers around.
Lets keep this civil and just state your preferences and opinions, and not harp on the other person's choices.

All this has little or nothing to do with the OPs question.
 
leroyk3, what are your requirements for stabilizing wood? What properties do you want to give the wood that it doesn't already have?
 
First of all, being a gunstock wood dealer, I have the best German moisture meter and do my own testing. For your information (you obviously need some), "dry" in most areas of the country is about 12%. This varies with time of year and area. Some areas are actually less dry in the Summers. My area is a high desert and "dry" is 6-9% depending upon the type of meter.

Next, as for finishes on untreated wood, there is "finish ON wood" and "finish IN wood". Finish IN wood penetrates the wood and is usually wipes off with 0000 steel wool, then a secon coat added and also removed. This is to fill the grain so that a smooth surface is attained. There may be many coats of this applied and removed before the desired effect is obtained. Then, is one wishes, you may add coats and only roughing them instead of removing them so that a thicker coat builds up. There are many names used and misused, but this is sometimes called "piano finish". But even when the surface coat is removed, some finish has penetrated the wood and remains. Deep? No. But deep enough.

Moreover,It doesn't matter is someone was once the same group. A friend who does not treat for others has various new polymers constantly sent to him by manufacturers to test to see if they may suit his needs. Some work out better than existing polymers. If you snooze, you loose.

I have found that K&G gives me a product that polishes better than any other I have tried who treat for outside sources. Simple fact, not fantasy.
 
Wow I did not mean to open a can of worms, just wanted some ifo on which products work best for stablizing some wood I have.
Pixel, what i want is to stablize some maple burl and also some walnut i have.
the burlseems to have some very fine cracks and i thought I could make if stronger and also look better. I am also interested in dying bone for jacknife handles I h ave tried some leather dye, but it is inconsistent.,also do ineed so soak bone if something to remove the natural oils in it?
thanks for any help given, Leroy
 
Shaughnessy said:
.

You do know that K&G and WSSI used to be the same company back in the day right? I think you should address the weight of the piece of material. Maybe some facts to go with all your opinions. [/I]
Click to expand...

That is a totally absurd and false statement and that alone is enough to discredit your other rants as "fact". Chill out, dude.
 
Shaughnessy said:
Well Larry thats what I was told by Mike from WSSI.
Click to expand...

Ludiman lied to you. Actually, "WSSI" initials stood for totaly different words than now. I don't recall all, but the "W" stood for Waterloo. That company was failing due to bad products and thought it had total "rights" to a particular impregnation process patent it was paying royalty on. Ken McFall was using the same process and paying royalties likewise. It nearly came to a lawsuit filed by K&G to shut WSSI up and finally WSSI backed off as they had no case. K&G bought the process rights out right eventually. Ludiman was the hired hand doing the stabilizing for WSSI and when they went under he bought the equipment. Always good to know what you are talking about before going public and looking foolish.
 
Just to be fair, there are several WSSI companies. I asked Mike Ludemann at WSSI Iona,IA to post any info that may clear this up. Lets stop this discussion until he logs on.
 
Yes:
Wood Stabilization Solutions International makes and sells stabilizing equipment . I don't know if they sell treated wood or not, but it appearers that some people who use the WSSI system use the letters WSSI in their info , such as "Stabilized by WSSI".
www.woodstabilization.com

.... and there is something called Wood Stabilization Split International, which appears to be an alternate name for the WSSI we all know in Iona .

There are other interesting search results referring to a WSSI in Ione, CA. I don't think this has anything to do with wood, though.
 
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