stacking up metal washers

timos-

timos-

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
2,162
I keep getting glue lines in between my nickel silver, copper, and brass washers. Super glue works great but leaves a visual flaw as well as my west systems. The best way to avoid this would be soldering? Would I be able to solder these materials with just a plain old soldering iron?
 
are you using "guide pins" through all layers to keep them from shifting? this can go a long way toward ensuring a completely flat fit as the layers go together exactly the same each time so you can fit/check/sand/check fit again and again until you're happy. this has solved a few problems in stacking metal to metal for me. I do my best to ensure each layer sits flat and flush prior to glue up and that way I reduce the chance of anything shifting during the glue up/curing process. I also built myself a hydraulic press to squish the handle in place helping to set all the layers in their most compressed state... elimitating space and in theory elimitating shrinkage of the pieces with different climates over the years as the pieces can only expand against one another instead of shrink over time.

hope this helps
 
Squeeze all the resin out and get poor adhesion, don't squeeze it out get a visible line.

Pin them and squeeze, pins mechanically retain them so starved glue joints are less likely to cause an issue?

I haven't done any metal on metal stacks yet. Mine have so far been layered with black G10. My solution in this case has been to dye my epoxy black. Glue line disappears as part of the G10 layer. Obviously this won't work unless you can dye to color match whatever material you're using in your stack. But since I'm often using black, whether in liners or washer stacks, and dying T-88 with System 3's black dye is very easy, it makes life easier when applicable.
 
I don't recall ever putting glue on stacked metal. It probably would be ruined in grinding and shaping, anyway. I use flat metal and stack it tight.I doubt the gap is much over .001". A pair of holes drilled through the stack for alignment pins allows easy assembly and rock solid construction. On some stacked bolsters/guards, I put two machine screws through the stack that screw into threaded holes in the main guard. That allows shaping and polishing as one unit before final assembly of the handle.
 
Soft soldering the layers will leave a slight solder line. Hard soldering is too much work.
Cut the pieces oversize, drill them, and pin them. Peen the pins, don't glue them.
 
Flat is the key. Alignment pins help. Shouldn't be much room for glue. I just did a guard where I soldered a copper layer in between two stainless layers. Everything went together really well, but all the parts were dead flat when I put them together, and most of the solder shot out of the joint when it melted.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
On some stacked bolsters/guards, I put two machine screws through the stack that screw into threaded holes in the main guard. That allows shaping and polishing as one unit before final assembly of the handle.
Click to expand...

I'f I'm reading this correctly you could then just grind the heads off of the screws, lap on a granite plate or something and then assemble. That would be pretty darn solid construction.
 
As Jason said, flat is the key. Your eye can see a .001 gap

Forgive me but I don't think any of the other things matter unless you have that flatness within one thousand at the edge.

You can use a ground flat plate or disc sander or any flat surface. Tape sandpaper to the flat surface. And sand away.

Btw. Your hands can also feel .001 or .002 thousands pin difference. If I give you two inspection pins that are .001 difference in either hand you can tell which one is bigger and which one is smaller by feel alone

You can also get shim stock. Dry fit your stack and see if the .002 shim stock goes in the gap.


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thanks for the ideas all, the flatness part is difficult with the .015 stock, i will try using no glue next time.
 
Yes, it is rock solid and tight. The screw heads are usually flat head, so there isn't much to lap away. If the heads are exposed, I just make a recess in the end of the handle to sit over them.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I don't recall ever putting glue on stacked metal. It probably would be ruined in grinding and shaping, anyway. I use flat metal and stack it tight.I doubt the gap is much over .001". A pair of holes drilled through the stack for alignment pins allows easy assembly and rock solid construction. On some stacked bolsters/guards, I put two machine screws through the stack that screw into threaded holes in the main guard. That allows shaping and polishing as one unit before final assembly of the handle.
Click to expand...

So if I understand right, the stock is so flat and pressed together that no dirt, moisture etc can get inbetween the different metal washers?
 
Pretty much. If you are terribly worried about the seal, just flood the handle stack with thin CA after assembly and shaping.

Also, most knives with stacked metal washers are a bit more on the decorative side, and don't get the heavy use and abuse that a regular field knife gets. That said, Scagel make lots of them for sportsmen and I don't recall Dr. Lucie saying William had a problem with the handle from just stacking them tight. IIRC, he used something like Tung Oil on his handles, which probably sealed the metal as well as the wood and leather.
 
Would another option be to drill small offsetting holes or grind a slight hollow (tough on 15 thou) like most of us do on handles to prevent the glue/epoxy from squeezing out when clamping tight?
~billyO
 
There is no need to glue the metal together. Glue joints are in the range of a hundredth of an inch. Tight metal to metal fitting laminations are in ten thousandths of an inch spacing. All the glue will do is prevent the joint from being tight. Very thin CA could penetrate any slight gaps by capillary action if applied after the stacked segment was finished.
 
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