Stainless steel and dishwashers

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Last time there was a discussion about using dishwashers to wash stainless steel knives, one of the opinions was that the new efficient dishwashers, with dedicated cutlery trays are safe for the knives.
Last year I've picked up dishwasher like that, although never used it to wash my knives. At some point I remembered the discussion and decided to test the Wusthof classic series, flexible boning knife which was given to me. The knife is made of X50CrMoV15 stainless steel, which is stamped on its side. Spec hardness is 54-56HRC.

Test conditions: Dishwasher - Miele Diamante Plus, which is quite hitech, uses less detergent and energy that more common dishwashers. In other words, that means less time and chemicals reacting with the knife blade.
Test started on 05/14/10, Friday. Since then, except for the first short week, I run dishwasher twice a week, currently, the dishwasher gets filled up sufficiently enough to run the washing cycle about twice a week.
The only exception was the last cycle, when the dishwasher was run inthe Pots And Pans mode. I'm being specific about the modes, since the mode selection affects the length of the cycle and in pots and pans more water is hotter, more detergent, in other words chemicals are used. For all cycles, standard dishwasher dry procedure was \used. After the dishwasher completed the dry cycle, it was left open for several hours, and whenever I unloaded it, the knife was removed and placed in the knife block.

Side 1 before test. Side 2 before test.

I'll skip the detailed test log, which isn't too long for now, but nothing has happened during first 4 cycles, after the fifth cycle, I noticed blackish discoloration on the both sides of the blade in the middle.


After 6th cycle, which was last Wed. 06/02/10, I found a rust spot on the blade. Discoloration is also darker. Unfortunately, I was unable to take a good shot of the discoloration, it's visible on the photos, but much more pronounced on a knife.

To be fair, the rust spot appeared on a section that was slightly dented. I am not sure how would that affect the corrosion resistance of the steel, it's not plated as far as I am concerned.

Use concerns - Used knives resist corrosion better. So, in that regard test knife was at a disadvantage, however, considering how 90% or more people use their kitchen knives, sitting them wet or dirty for hours, this one had it easy, never had any time like that.
Still, rust on just 6th cycle was a surprise to me. I was expecting rust, but much later.
For the record, the blade was sitting in the knife block for few months before the test, zero rust or discoloration.

I'll watch how the rust develops for next few weeks, then I'll see what I can change.

Complete article with detailed log - Stainless Steel Knives In A Dishwasher
 
Hi,

Interesting test. My objection to dishwashers and knives has always been the bouncing around during the cycle. But my new dishwasher also has the knife section. I've been washing a set of Faberware knives almost daily for about 4 months.

I realize that the Faberware knives aren't as nice steel as your Wusthof. But I have yet to see any staining or rust formation on them. I don't generally allow the washer to run the dry cycle though. I just open the door a crack and let them air dry.

Perhaps there are differences in soaps and water?

dalee
 
Faberware, Fibrox and many others are made of 420 class steel, considerably more stain resistant than the X50CrMoV15.
And yes, the dry cycle is accelerating the corrosion, because of the hot air.

IMHO steel has much more importance here than the soaps, or water, but I'd assume water hardness is also relatively important.
 
An interesting test. Thanks for posting!

Steels corrode less quickly in alkaline solutions (high pH), so the pH of the washing solution or of your house water could conceivably make a difference in corrosion performance.

I believe most decent kitchen cutlery uses 420HC, not 420.
If you look at the composition of Latrobe 420HC
http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/documents/datasheets/LSS_420_HC.pdf
you will see that there actually is not much reason to expect the X50CrMoV15 to be less corrosion resistant than a blade of 420HC. Granted there is some variation among steel manufacturers as to the composition of 420HC, but for most manufacturers, the carbon is about 0.45% and the Cr about 0.13. A tad less carbon, but less chromium than X50CrMoV15.

FWIW, I don't wash any cutlery in the dishwasher. Bad juju.
 
I was unaware of Ph factor, so thanks for the input. Interesting if I can find that info on washing solution.

I've compared all 3 420 vs. 420HC vs. X50CrMoV15 steel compositions.

The thing with 420 is that specs and manufacturer variations allow carbon anywhere from 0.15 to 0.40... Huge margin, but not unusual, W1 has much bigger foe example.
So, corrosion resistance will vary within 420 steels of different batch/maker quite widely.
 
I was unaware of Ph factor, so thanks for the input. Interesting if I can find that info on washing solution.

I've compared all 3 420 vs. 420HC vs. X50CrMoV15 steel compositions.

The thing with 420 is that specs and manufacturer variations allow carbon anywhere from 0.15 to 0.40... Huge margin, but not unusual, W1 has much bigger foe example.
So, corrosion resistance will vary within 420 steels of different batch/maker quite widely.

there are three significant errors in your post.

1) I said "420HC". 420HC is not 420. different alloys. Not the same. No manufacturer sells a 420HC with only 0.15% carbon. The 0.15%C in straight 420 is insufficient to allow the steel to be hardened beyond ~50 HRC. While there is no AISI standard for 420HC, the average carbon content is ~ 0.45%. You have to look beyond the specification to the composition and the properties.

This is why cutlery companies use 420HC for their blades, not 420. I leave out the junk companies. We're talking cutlery here, not junk.

2) The two companies whose spec sheets I checked for 420HC composition, Latrobe and Allegheny, both cite carbon contents of around 0.45. Since those are two of the biggest steel suppliers in the US, I do not think you can discount them and say that the max Carbon Content of 420HC is only 0.4. The average high end is likely a bit greater than 0.45 since both those companies only list nominal composition.

3) re W1 carbon content variation vs. "420" variation: When looking at the carbon content variation, you have to look at the relative variation, not just the absolute variation.

The effect of the difference between 0.15% and 0.45% Carbon content in a steel alloys performance is far greater than the effect due to a variation in Carbon content of 0.7% and 1.4% in a non-stainless alloy. Once you get over 0.77% Carbon the matrix won't hold any more carbon, so you are forming iron carbides. So while the properties improve somewhat, they do not improve at the rate at which a "420" alloy improves when moving from 0.15% to 0.45%. Other things happen with stainless steel when moving above 0.7%. But you were talking W1.
 
1) I said "420HC". 420HC is not 420
I never implied they were the same? I listed specifically all 3 of them to emphasize they were 3 different alloys, may be bad wording, although I did say specifically 420 vs 420HC and in the chart they are listed as 2 different alloys. When oyu click on the 420HC link in the chart it takes you to detail page which never lists any 420 name(s).


2) The two companies whose spec sheets I checked for 420HC composition, Latrobe and Allegheny, both cite carbon contents of around 0.45.
Same misunderstanding then. I was referring specifically to 420, not 420HC.


3) re W1 carbon content variation vs. "420" variation: When looking at the carbon content variation, you have to look at the relative variation, not just the absolute variation.
Thanks for the info :) I was simply referring to spec variation magnitude, I'm not that good in even basic metallurgy to know details at that level. Well, I do know that part now.
 
I've tried the dishwasher method of washing a few knives. Didn't care for it. Much easier to get a toothbrush and with some mild dishwashing liquid and doing it that way and then rinse with hot tap water and then blow dry.

Some of the dishwashing soaps are very caustic and you don't want that.
 
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