Stainless Steel Damascus

Laredo7mm

Laredo7mm

Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
1,240
Hey all, hopefully I am not opening a can of worms here like I did when I asked about Timascus;)

But anyway, here it goes. I want to know how people make SS Damascus. Does it have to be done in a "can" or is there a "magic flux" that gets the SS to weld to each other?

Is there any real advantage to making SS Damascus? Yeah, I know, that is a loaded question, but I still want to hear some answers.

What alloys are used to get the contrasting colors?

If you all have some insight on this, i would appreciate your input.

Maybe I will try making some, heck that would give me a great excuse to get some cyro equipment.:D
 
I have only once tried to make stainless damascus. It did not work for me. I used 316. I was with a bloke who said it would not work. He took over the weld and it did not. I did not have my own forge at the time. He was the same bloke who told me chainsaw blades would not weld if you did not grind of the teeth to reduce the chrome. I think we all know now you don't have to grind the teeth off, chainsaw will weld. I have spoken to other makers who say a temperature controlled forge is needed and a special flux that is quite poisonous. I gave up. I will be interested to see what comes out of your thread. It is obviously possible Damasteel proves it. Weather we can do it in the back yard is another story.
 
Yes What Reg says.
I have used it many times from Devin Thomas. His at the time was AEBL/304. It did require the cryo treatment. I used Paul Bos back then. I know Gerome Weinand does it at his shop. He also has tons of AEBL for sale. If you want his # just respond.
I too am interested in your thread.
 
Hey Bruce, I would like to have his number, been thinking about
SS Damascus for a while now.

Thanks,

Bill
 
How do you make it Bill? ;) :D

I think I have an Idea of how it is done, but I am not sure.

Bruce, shoot me that number too.

Thanks-

Sean
 
All the research I have done looks promising for doing it at home in the forge. As far as poisonous, well, i don't know. Some things i read said yes, and others said no. I have a very well ventilated shop and i stand upwind of the forge. One account i read said it would not be any worse for you than using borax.

I ordered my materials and chemicals so i should be able to give it a go next weekend. i ordered 440C and 304, hopefully that will be ok. I think the hardest part will be getting the chemical flux mix correct and then trying to combat the air hardening potential of the 440C.

Here are the alloy combinations that i found:

440c and 302

316 and 304

AEB-L and 304

RWL 34 and PMC 27

AEB-H and 302

Anyway, I will let you all know how it goes if I don't kill myself trying.;) :eek: ;)
 
Oh here is the # for the AEBL from Gerome Weinand: (406) 534-0845

Sean, Im interested to see what you come up with. What kind of flux does it need? What is the welding temp for SS? Why couldnt it be done in a cannister (dry method)? I wouldnt think air hardening would be a problem but what do I know, Ive never tryed it.
 
Bruce, I think it could be done in a canister. From what i have read it is the nickel and chromium oxides that do not allow stainless to be welded to each other. Kinda like when you try to forhge weld nickel to nickel, it just doesn't stick. If you can keep those oxides from forming then all would be OK. that is why I think the canister method would work.

Regular old borax is not good enough to eat away those oxides when trying to do it in the forge with out a canister. I have never done any canister weldeing, so I am going to try enhancing my borax instead. I will let you know later when i get the flux recipe correct on what i am using.

As far as welding temp, I have no clue. I won't even be able to give an approximation if i get this to work. I finally started wearing some shaped safety glasses while forge welding and it really messes with the colors. I now go by how the flux looks on the surface of the billet and that little "feeling" that tells you when it is ready. Before the shaded glasses, I would weld really hot. I would weld once the billet started to get that bright white color. If i were to guess now, it is probably in the yellow range.

Anyway, I will post more later. Hopefully a sucess story and some pictures.:D
 
Sean I am willing to bet the temp needs to be higher than with simple carbon steel. I would think about 2400. That is about white hot. Dont you use a digital pyrometer? I dont like looking at high heat either, makes my eyes hurt at night when Im trying to sleep. The good things about the canister is it keeps out oxides and can be overheated without harm (to an extent) I see no reason why the can couldnt be made of stainless so it doesnt need to be ground off completely before restacking or folding.
 
Nope, no pyrometer for me in the forge. One day when I get a better forge setup than I have right now. My forge is just stacked IFB and I rebuild it alot to replace the floor from flux damage. I am still trying to find something to line the floor with. The SS sheet I was using finally let go and ruined a few bricks.

The more I read about you guys building/using a vertical forge, the more I am leaning in that direction. I have a couple projects going right now, so hopefully around X-mas time I will try to build a vertical forge.

I do all my HT in a molten salt bath. That one is digitally controlled temp. Once I get a stable forge, I think I will add a pyrometer. At least an analog one anyway.
 
Bruce, I welded some scrap stainless from a counter top in a can, don't know what the stainless was, just wanted to see if it would weld up, I cut several layers and stacked as tight as I could, I placed a piece of cardboard in the bottom of the can to burn up any oxygen, and welded the top on with no air holes, but the can was solidly packed. I was told to coat the can with mud and I did. took some red clay from back of the shop, made a slurry and brushed it on the inside of the can, let dry, then filled the can. the stainless welded up good and solid, and the steel released from the can when I was stretching the bar out. I just cut the end of the bar off, made a slice down the side with a skilsaw and metal blade and pulled the bar right out the end of the can , just like a bananna. Pretty cool. All I need know is some good stainless.

Bill
 
Thanks Bill, So we are on the right track. Was the slurry inside the can so the ss would not stick to it and need to be ground off? If so I dont see why a ss can couldnt be made. As with all canister billets the ends get cut off but the sides take loads of grinding or milling to remove them. If your clay works on ss why wouldnt it work on mild steel can and regular hi-carb damascus? The can would peel off like a bannaner!
 
Hi all

the Ni and Cr oxides are what is causing the problems with the stainless welding..
- sometimes 5160 is a turkey to weld due to the Cr oxides.... in this case, just add some Fluorspar to the anhydrous borax to help remove the stubborn oxides..

just remember that you need good ventilation using the stuff... F is a very heavy oxident

hope that helps
Greg
 
Well now that Greg said it, I will confess that Fluorspar is what I have on order along with anhydrous Borax (Kinda tired of 20 Mule team foam up). I didn't want come right out and tell because of the potential someone could get hurt. Maybe I am just parranoid. At least now they can say "well, Greg told me to use CaF2";)

Anyway, I am not sure how much to use, but I read somewhere that 10% is about right. So that is where I am going to start. The 304, 440C, Anhydrous Borax and Calcium Fluoride is supposed to converge at my house by Thursday. Hopefully I will post some results by Thursday Night.

Lets hope that that 1200 CFM blower does its job and pulls any nasties out of the shop.
 
Bruce, the clay coating works great on high carbon steel in cans, I've welded up several useing the clay slurry, I make it to where its thin but sticky, just brush on the walls inside the can and let her dry, then put in the goodies and seal it up. The clay is so thin you never know its there when the billet comes out, but it sure does keep the can from sticking.

Bill
 
Just an update. I added some fluorspar to the borax and it was a no weld situation.:mad: :mad:

Well, at least I didn't get sick from it. I have a couple more chemical additives to try out tonight. Hopefully those will work. If not maybe some alloy changes:confused:

I will post more later.
 
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