Stainless Steel Madness

[miguet]

I was reading archival opinions regarding S30V and notionally comparing them to what I've read over the past year. Radically divergent viewpoints on the exact same knives. It would make a casual reader believe that there was an old S30V and a new, inferior S30V.

My point: From a practical use standpoint I'm confounded by what I read. I've owned the sebenza in ATS34, BG42 and S30V and have used them daily. I simply cannot tell the difference. Same with the Griptillian in 440C, S30V, and D2. But jeez, when I drill down for viewpoints on the forums, I feel like a provincial rube. People have very detailed and extreme opinions regarding the virtues of one high quality SS over another. How do they remember a knife's cutting history between sharpenings - well enough to draw meaningful comparisons? Do rope and phonebook exercises really accomplish this? Just curious.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

In the real world, most small personal knives never get used as hard as in tests specifically designed to overstress them.

Since blade geometry and heat treat have at least as much to do with a knife's performance, within the range of commonly used steels, there is no reason to obsess over the particular steel used in a given knife.

There are differences. Some sharpen more easily, or hold a better edge, but the differences are unimpressive compared to the hype.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I was reading archival opinions regarding S30V and notionally comparing them to what I've read over the past year. Radically divergent viewpoints on the exact same knives. It would make a casual reader believe that there was an old S30V and a new, inferior S30V.

Not really, what tends to happen is that when a new steel is introduced there is a massive initial overhyping which has little to do with reality. After awhile the steel gradually gets put into less expensive knives and is used by the general public which isn't as protective of their knives.

How do they remember a knife's cutting history between sharpenings - well enough to draw meaningful comparisons?

The performance difference can be quite large, many to one in some aspects. Often though the people who are discussing performance have very high tolerances for sharpness and cutting ability and can discriminate fairly small differences. They are also often just talking about how the steel responds to sharpening and are pushing blades far past the ability to slice paper and such.

-Cliff

 

[22-rimfire]

If you can't look up the steel used in the catalog or read it on the box, how do you even know what steel is used? Bright and shiny....stainless? What kind? Oh yeah, it says "stainless" on the blade.

I often have no idea what steel is used to make a blade. If I bought it to use, then the sharpening characterisitics come into play. Problem is you already spent your money.

 

[sevenedges]

22-rimfire, The higher end knife manufactures will usually let you know what type of steel is being used. Otherwise it is probably a lower end steel being used.

 

[Hawkings]

22-rimfire, The higher end knife manufactures will usually let you know what type of steel is being used. Otherwise it is probably a lower end steel being used.

And if you can't tell the difference while using the knife it really does not matter, unless you want to treat the knife as a status symbol(Which is okay to).

 

[Lavan]

there is no reason to obsess over the particular steel used in a given knife.

Hmmmmm. Methinks Esav may own a (shudder) 420 knife or two.
Pity the man. Cutting things with ...INFERIOR... steel.

Hmmph!

 

[Lavan]

I think S30V is satisfactory.

At least to use for a ....sheath.... for a ZDP189 !!!!

YeeeHAWW!!!

 

[sevenedges]

ZDP189 is a steel that is on my want to try list, along with the spyderco h1?. the rust proof one. That could be my dream steel. Rust resistance is my main concern with folding knives. I am also looking for a large bowie, after many years the best iv'e owned was a couple SHBM'S. should have kept one of those Busses. Just looking for high perfomance and perfect fit and finish. along with the perfect handle fit for my hand. the last two busse couldn't deliver IMHO.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Methinks Esav may own a (shudder) 420 knife or two.

No need to get insulting about it.

A few in 440A and AUS-6 maybe. OK, one good one is probably 420!

 

[22-rimfire]

22-rimfire, The higher end knife manufactures will usually let you know what type of steel is being used. Otherwise it is probably a lower end steel being used.

I agree. On new purchases, I currently keep track of what steel is used in a particular knife by logging it into a descriptive summary of the knife on my computer. But what if it is an old knife?

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I can tell the difference in edge holding ability and ease of sharpening between the steels, but in my experience there hasn't been a big enough difference for me to have a real preference.

 

[Hogpaw]

I wanted to try and make a knife. I have a bunch of 304 stainless in 3/16 inch. Is that a usable steel for starting a knife. Where is the best place to find out about tempering, autocad files. I work on a waterjet so cutting the shape is easy with a autocad file.

 

[Bob W]

As a casual knife user I rarely notice a difference between steel types either, unless the steel is very very poor. But I do know which types of steel are more $$$, so I have expectations for what materials a certain priced knife should include. A large Argentina Boker bowie on closeout, 440A will be just fine... A sub-$50 user-grade knife with an interesting design, nothing wrong with AUS-8.

I have a bunch of 304 stainless in 3/16 inch. Is that a usable steel for starting a knife. Where is the best place to find out about tempering, autocad files.

You should ask down in the ShopTalk forum at this website.

Best Wishes,
-Bob

 

[lycanthought]

I have to say that I can tell the difference between cobalt and non cobalt stainlesses. The edge on a VG10 blade feels very different to that of an equally sharp blade in ZDP or AUS8. I believe this is due to larger cobalt carbides giving a microscopic roughness to the edge, which I find really usefull for slicing.

 

[Redguy]

I wanted to try and make a knife. I have a bunch of 304 stainless in 3/16 inch. Is that a usable steel for starting a knife. Where is the best place to find out about tempering, autocad files. I work on a waterjet so cutting the shape is easy with a autocad file.

304 is way too soft for a knifeblade.

 

[Blop]

but the differences are unimpressive compared to the hype.

The differences are frustrating small compared to the hype.

 

[db]

Without side by side testing your probably not going to tell a difference between well heat treated steels. In fact if you had a well heat treated 420 blade and a poor heat treated super stainless you may even think the 420 is the super steel even with a side by side test.

 

[brewthunda]

It's hard not to let all the steel talk go to your head. Personally, I'm always looking for S30 and VG10 and good carbon steels . . and then I'm surprised how I can always rely on my Leek in 440A to have a fantastic cutting edge (it has a great convex edge that glides through cardboard and food and other materials). With all the steel snobbery talk I see, I know deep down that 440A should go dull just by looking at it funny . . . but in practice it takes a great edge and hasn't let me down. Similarly, my 24 year old SAK has always been a reliable friend - it takes and keeps a very sharp edge and I have the old scars to prove it.

Now that I'm getting into traditional slip joint styles, I find myself ignoring all the great knives out there in "Tru-Sharp" and 420 because I know that those are inferior steels . . . but the reality of it is that 420 would probably be just fine for what I'd be using those knives for. I know that if I can just get over this mental block, a whole world of affordable knives will become available to me. It's hard to overcome this block though.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I believe this is due to larger cobalt carbides giving a microscopic roughness to the edge, which I find really usefull for slicing.

Cobalt isn't a primary carbide former, it strengthens by solid solution. However the carbide structure of VG-10 is far more coarse than either ZDP-189 or AUS-8A. AUS-8A has a really low carbide volume and ZDP-189 has much smaller carbides than VG-10 because it is a P/M.

I have a bunch of 304 stainless in 3/16 inch. Is that a usable steel for starting a knife.

Knives have been traditional made of weaker metals so yes. 304 is fairly soft, < 20 HRC, but you can still use it to explore elements of balance, and how geometry and grit finish of the edge effect cutting ability and edge retention.

Blop, by defination reality is always less than hype as that is how hype is defined. However not all makers hype their products, some actually describe the reality. Just listen only to the makers who guarantee their descriptions, do live demonstrations and are frank and open about the limitations as much as the advantages of their blades/steel.

-Cliff