stainless vs carbon...magnacut/52100

[kane22]

They are both MKC stonedgoats. I've had the MagnaCut for about a year now, I really like the design so when they had a drop of 52100 the other week a got one. I've always liked the higher toughness steels 3V being my favorite. This is my first 52100. The one issue I've seen with stainless steels is a little more micro shipping at the apex than what I expected. Nothing you can see with the eye but at 60x you can see it.

So now that I have the same model knife in a good stainless and carbon steel, both with a good heat treat, how would they compare. I sharped both with CBN stones on my KME. The magnacut I finished with gunny juice on balsa wood. The 52100 I finished with black ark stone.

The bevel was a little jacked up on the 52100, and for an "easy to sharpen" steel it took more time than what I was expecting. Maybe it will hold an edge longer than I think too??? They run it at 60-61HRC. I couldn't see or feel any burr even before I finished it off with the black ark. Under magnification the apex looked very clean.

Which one is sharper...to me cutting phonebook paper, hair, wood I'd give the edge to 52100. It has that sticky sharp feeling to it, if you know what I mean. It's a little quieter cutting through paper, you don't even feel it cut hair, opposed to feeling a little grab before it cuts. It's too soon to tell how it will hold up, but coming off the sharpener it seems a little better.

Thoughts, opinions, am I crazy, maybe I need to change my method of sharpening??? I know in the old day they used to say carbon steels would get sharper that stainless, but I find the hard to believe with the new CPM steels.

 

[Unicorn161]

I want to say that it can take a keener edge, but won't hold it as long as Magnacut. It's a lot tougher, so if you're doing some tough cutting it's less likely to chip the edge.
It has been a while since I've had anything in 52100 though, so I can't speak with authority.

 

[kane22]

I want to say that it can take a keener edge, but won't hold it as long as Magnacut. It's a lot tougher, so if you're doing some tough cutting it's less likely to chip the edge.
It has been a while since I've had anything in 52100 though, so I can't speak with authority.

Yes, I'm sure Magnacut will hold an edge longer. I'm just not sure why 52100 seems to take a keener edge? I know it has a fine grain structure, but so do most of the CPM steels. My stainless knives are sharp, but more of a glass smooth sharp.

 

[Gottagofishn]

Maybe to test the steels and how they perform, sharpen them with the same stones, angles and stropping procedure. I believe it would be more “apples to apples. Differences in performance could then be more likely steel characteristics as opposed to the grind IMHO. A very small difference could most definitely change the performance of those apex’s.

 

[Ilikesharpstuff]

Those appear to be Stoned Goats

 

[kane22]

Those appear to be Stoned Goats

Yep, you're right. I don't know why my brain always thinks speedgoat. Edited my post

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Yes, I'm sure Magnacut will hold an edge longer. I'm just not sure why 52100 seems to take a keener edge? I know it has a fine grain structure, but so do most of the CPM steels. My stainless knives are sharp, but more of a glass smooth sharp.

'Fine grain' is relative. In general terms, it's known that if they're heat-treated well, most carbon steels will be finer-grained than most any stainless, CPM or not. That fine grain also factors into greater toughness in the carbon steel blades most of the time, as compared to most stainless blades at similar hardness. The hard carbides in most stainless steels will usually be larger than the carbon steel's grain, which essentially completely lacks those larger, wear-resistant carbides found in stainless steels.

CPM steels' carbides are finer than those found in non-CPM stainless or tool steels, but will still be relatively larger than the grain in most any simple carbon steel. This isn't to say that those carbides can't be carefully refined to a very keen edge using the appropriate abrasives for finishing. But it takes much more careful work to do so, than with most carbon steels.

 

[kane22]

Maybe to test the steels and how they perform, sharpen them with the same stones, angles and stropping procedure. I believe it would be more “apples to apples. Differences in performance could then be more likely steel characteristics as opposed to the grind IMHO. A very small difference could most definitely change the performance of those apex’s.

Everything was the same except for I used my black ark to knock off any burr that was left on the 52100, and I used gunny juice on balsa wood for the magnacut (that's my goto for any of the hard carbide steels). I use my KME for everything to keep everything as consistent as possible.

 

[kane22]

'Fine grain' is relative. In general terms, it's known that if they're heat-treated well, most carbon steels will be finer-grained than most any stainless. That fine grain also factors into greater toughness in the carbon steel blades most of the time, as compared to most stainless blades. The hard carbides in most stainless steels will usually be larger than the carbon steel's grain, which essentially completely lacks those larger, wear-resistant carbides found in stainless steels.

CPM steels' carbides are finer than those found in non-CPM stainless or tool steels, but will still be relatively larger than the grain in most any simple carbon steel. This isn't to say that those carbides can't be carefully refined to a very keen edge using the appropriate abrasives for finishing. But it takes much more careful work to do so, than with most carbon steels.

I just assumed that the CPM steels would be just as fine. What you're saying makes sense then.

 

[bmo419]

What's your grit progression on the KME? For me I've found that a lot of steels, even Magnacut, will show that micro chipping if you start with a super low grit, say 140ish. It certainly makes reprofiling faster, but I feel it just does more harm than good to the apex. To get rid of the micro chips you just need to fully apex with one of your medium grits.

If your angle is already where you want it, next time you sharpen I'd skip the really low grit and just start with a medium grit, 400-600gr range. Unless you had a really damaged edge that is.

 

[garry3]

Maybe to test the steels and how they perform, sharpen them with the same stones, angles and stropping procedure. I believe it would be more “apples to apples. Differences in performance could then be more likely steel characteristics as opposed to the grind IMHO. A very small difference could most definitely change the performance of those apex’s.

Is edge stability going to inter the chat?

 

[garry3]

They are both MKC stonedgoats. I've had the MagnaCut for about a year now, I really like the design so when they had a drop of 52100 the other week a got one. I've always liked the higher toughness steels 3V being my favorite. This is my first 52100. The one issue I've seen with stainless steels is a little more micro shipping at the apex than what I expected. Nothing you can see with the eye but at 60x you can see it.

So now that I have the same model knife in a good stainless and carbon steel, both with a good heat treat, how would they compare. I sharped both with CBN stones on my KME. The magnacut I finished with gunny juice on balsa wood. The 52100 I finished with black ark stone.

The bevel was a little jacked up on the 52100, and for an "easy to sharpen" steel it took more time than what I was expecting. Maybe it will hold an edge longer than I think too??? They run it at 60-61HRC. I couldn't see or feel any burr even before I finished it off with the black ark. Under magnification the apex looked very clean.

Which one is sharper...to me cutting phonebook paper, hair, wood I'd give the edge to 52100. It has that sticky sharp feeling to it, if you know what I mean. It's a little quieter cutting through paper, you don't even feel it cut hair, opposed to feeling a little grab before it cuts. It's too soon to tell how it will hold up, but coming off the sharpener it seems a little better.

Thoughts, opinions, am I crazy, maybe I need to change my method of sharpening??? I know in the old day they used to say carbon steels would get sharper that stainless, but I find the hard to believe with the new CPM steels.

It might be possible to get high alloy steels as sharp as the simple carbon steels (at least in theory), but I doubt the juice would be worth the squeeze.

A strop on newspaper or plain leather would benefit the edge coming off the ark, no loaded strop required in my opinion.

 

[kane22]

What's your grit progression on the KME? For me I've found that a lot of steels, even Magnacut, will show that micro chipping if you start with a super low grit, say 140ish. It certainly makes reprofiling faster, but I feel it just does more harm than good to the apex. To get rid of the micro chips you just need to fully apex with one of your medium grits.

If your angle is already where you want it, next time you sharpen I'd skip the really low grit and just start with a medium grit, 400-600gr range. Unless you had a really damaged edge that is.

80m,40m,20m is what my cbn stones are, and that's all these knifes have ever seen. You could be right, and I think I have seen that with my plated diamond stones. They're way more aggressive, my 1500 grit KME stone leaves a deeper scratch pattern than the 20m (924 grit) cbn stone does. Once the bevel is set I try to use trailing edge strokes to prevent any damage to the apex.

It might be possible to get high alloy steels as sharp as the simple carbon steels (at least in theory), but I doubt the juice would be worth the squeeze.

A strop on newspaper or plain leather would benefit the edge coming off the ark, no loaded strop required in my opinion.

That black ark is amazing. You can feel any imperfection on the edge. I wanted to see what it did just finishing with it. I use mineral oil too, so it made it an easy place to stop. I'll try stropping the next time and see if I can tell a difference.

 

[Jason B.]

Some steels just take a better edge. You want to compare something to 52100? Try K390 or CPM-M4.

52100 is hard to beat in sharpness, even for modern alloys. It will rust if you look at it wrong but its fairly easy to sharpen and as you can see its wildly sharp. Just a good steel.