stainless...

[puukkoman]

Twofold post...

First, answer this question in your head before reading the next one.

Do you like or dislike Case stainless? Why?




Now, after a moment of contemplation, think on this.

Do you own a Buck 110 or 112? Do you like it?

These have blades of comparable steel, don't they?


I've heard so many people say that they don't like the sainless that Case uses most often on their newer knives... But hasn't Buck been using the same stuff for decades? Nobody seems to complain that their Buck folder has crappy blade steel...

Sorry, just a thought.

Peace.

 

[Psychopomp]

Buck's 420HC and older 440C are far from crappy steels, and so is Case's stainless. I think everyone gets taken into the idea that newer steels are better, and they may have some qualities that are better than others, and other aspects that aren't as good.

You can't beat the old Buck 440C. I've got several older 110s of 440C and they're hell to sharpen, but they'll keep a scary edge as long as some of these wondersteels. I've got some ATS-55, S30V and other super steels that won't hold an edge as long as a Case stainless. I do seem to have good luck with VG-10, though.

As far as I'm concerned, if the steel is treated properly for the job it's intended for it doesn't matter what it is. I've got a few stainless Cases and a few not stainless Case knives... sure I can tell a difference in the edge retention, but it's only noticable to me because I've been around knvies for so long.

If you take someone who is only casually interested in knives, someone who carries one daily but doesn't collect or even own another one, they won't see a difference in 420HC, 440C, D2, S30V or any other. To most people, a knife is a hunk of metal, it gets dull and it gets sharpened. Average Joe wouldn't understand half the things we talk about here, and all these numbers and names for steels would have his head spinning. To him, steel is steel and a knife is a knife.

Maybe it's good that we have a more discerning view of steels, maybe not. It's bad when we get to the point that we won't buy a Buck 110 because it uses 420HC instead of the monthly supersteel. But it's also good that we won't buy a blade from some mystery steel like 420j2 because we understand the properties of said steel. But for the vast majority of the population, none of this means anything.

I guess I never really did answer your questions:

Yes, I own two stainless Case knives. And yes, I like them. I don't carry them often but they're used for sharpening sticks and whittling little chunks of wood. They're good knives.

And yes, I own (as of today) eight 110s and five 112s. The 110, as I've said many times around here, is my all time favorite knife design.

 

[cattleking]

All stainless is pretty much worthless and should be avoided in selecting a knife. And that includes all the wonder steels out today. Stick with 1095.

 

[cpirtle]

All stainless is pretty much worthless and should be avoided in selecting a knife. And that includes all the wonder steels out today. Stick with 1095.

Alright, I'll bite.... just how many super steel knives have you done extensive testing with to come to this conclusion?

There are so many factors that impact a knife's "worthiness" during use I would go so far as to say I could not disagree with you more. It really comes down to what the knife will be used for.

For a person wanting a knife with decent edge holding, ease of sharpening and high rust resistance & low price 420HC (or similar) may be the perfect steel.

Someone who wants a lot of abrasion resistance, long edge holding and good rust prevention should look at BG42 or S30V.

I like a good carbon steel but "the answer to everyone's needs" it's not. Contrary to your statement, rust resistance is a much of a virtue as edge holding, abrasion resistance, flexability, grain structure and every other facet of a knife. It just depends on need.

IMO, the argument about Case Steel is that at it's price point there are a lot of companies offering much better steel. I can buy a Buck 110 in 420HC for $30, or a Queen in D2 for $40-50, an old Winchester in Carbon Steel for $30-40.

Most Case knives in their stainless start at $40 and go up to $150 and it's just not a good value. Paying over $100 for a knife should ensure a higher quality steel at that price. Not that their steel is bad but I can get a similar knife for under $15 with steel of equal quality.

I just picked up a Case Cheetah on closeout for $30 and am satisfied with the price I paid. Any more than that and I would have probably picked up something else (or nothing).

IMO Case is riding the wave of their collectors and is not compelled to offer a better steel. Yet they need to keep prices high to stay in business. When they do offer a knife in a premium stainless they quadruple the prices for a $2 upgrade and gouge their customers.... it's ridiculous.

 

[Knife Outlet]

All stainless is pretty much worthless and should be avoided in selecting a knife. And that includes all the wonder steels out today. Stick with 1095.

I don't think there is any reason to make soft carbon steel (1095 etc.) pocket knives any longer. The high chromium tool steels (D2 and others,) and the tough stainless steels, VG-10, S30V, pretty much outperform soft carbon steels in a small knife blade. I do have some carbon steel kitchen knives that I use daily but they are made from Japanese shirogami and aogami hardened to RC64. Stainless steels that harden that high are just too expensive but they are available (ZDP189, Cowry Y and others.) I still think soft carbon steel is the way to go in an axe head or camp knife but not in a pocket knife blade.

However, if you are talking about traditional folders then, for the most part, the carbon steel models outperform the stainless models because the stainless models use steel that is designed more to be stainless than to provide high performance. Using higher tech stainless slows down the production line. Naturally, I would pay the price gladly but most slipjoint buyers are just unaware of the advantages of modern stainless steels so I, and you, are in a tiny minority.

But you can buy factory slipjoinst made from D2, ATS-34, 440C, VG-10 and others, all of which make a more suitable pocket knife blade than 1095. They are more expensive but worth it for using knives. I used to feel like Cattle King does many years ago. Things have certainly changed.

 

[Ryan8]

I'd consider 1095 worthless in a knife that I wanted to keep a razor edge on and use to slice a lot of tomatoes, oranges, and other acidic fruits. I'd also consider it worthless for diving in salt water.

 

[Bobwhite]

If you whittle, not just shaving sticks, but real whittling, then you discover that stainless is not very good for use in wood. I whittle and have tried D2, ATS-34, VG-10, S30V and all the rest of the stainless wonder steels and 1095 beats them all hands down for use in wood. Food prep, diving in saltwater, wherever corrosion is a serious issue; stainless is probably better, but only because it is corrosion resistant. Carbon steels get sharper, it is a function of the grain structure of the steels. The additions to steel to make it stainless change the grain structure to a larger size. Look at the best woodcarving tools, Sorby and Two Cherries and the like. They are all simple carbon steels. For use in wood, they can't be beat. 1095 in a pocket knife if a great whitttler. If you care for your knife, corrosion will not be an issue unless you are constantly working in a saltwater or similar environment.

 

[allenC]

I don't like Case's stainless steel very much, and I don't really like the steel that Buck uses on the 112 either.

The Buck 112 is such a fine knife; I love the design, I love the lock-up, it's nearly the perfect size, it's a little too heavy, but I don't carry the 112 because of the blade-steel.
That's what has driven me to companies like Spyderco and Benchmade.

As for the stainless vs non-stainless debate:
I think that non-stainless steels are very over-rated.
The premium stainless steels used today (like S30V and VG-10) are simply better.
I can get them just as sharp as I can non-stainless steels, they will not rust very easliy, they will hold an edge for a very long time, they are easy to sharpen, they are easier to maintain in humid regions, and they don't impart that distinctive iron taste to foods.

Just my opinion,
Allen.

 

[Don Luis]

OK, just going by feel, without any testing, some comments on my experience:

I only have one Case, a stainless lockback hunter over 5" closed, I feel that it takes a good edge but that it does not hold it as long as others, such as my Schrade LB7 in 440A, my old Buck 112 in 440C (fantastic knife), my old Buck 422 in 425M, or my not so old Schrades in 420HC, etc. maybe it's all in the heat treat????.

I have used different knives for whittling wood, I do find my non stainless knives great for that (Schrade stockman and Opinel), but I have some stainless knives that I also like, (cheap Irish Schrade, Schrade Uncle Henry, stainless Opinel) they all have to be touched up often while whittling, even my X-acto carving set has to be touched-up often, it is non stainless with very thin blades and acute bevels.

My VG10 Spyderco Delica takes and holds a good edge very well, I should say that I haven't used for whittling though.

Luis

 

[The Drifter]

Cpirtle,

I agree fully with you about the price point issue concerning Case. They just do not seem to care or can not afford to offer better blade steel in their stainless knives. Simultaneously, they can not seem to offer a better selection of CV knives for the user end of the market. Whenever I go into Lowe's or the local knife store and see the prices that Cases, especially some of the higher-end stag handled or really nice bone ones command, it makes me ill. And this is pretty much the main business of the local knife store, serving the Case collector. I have even considered purchasing a newer CV Case in amber bone (the large stockman), but when I looked at it it seemed loose and the the backsprings just did not have the strength of the Boker I ended up buying. It is sad that they have become a trinket company, but why buy a newer Case when one can get a newer Queen, a decent user older Case, or any number of other knives that would equal or top Case stainless for the same money or even substantially less for some.