Standards for Describing Knife Condition

roshi

roshi

Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
1,501
A lot of the sales and trades in the Knife Exchange are NIB "collector" knives. NIB is hard to dispute.

For knives that have been removed from the box so to speak, I've seen (and used) LNIB, mint, excellent, rarely carried, used once to cut a piece of paper, popped a few arm hairs, etc. used to describe condition.

Is there a knife standard description of condition like the NRA standard for guns?

If not, would some of the experienced respected senior Blade Forum members consent to establishing one that all of us could agree to use when selling or trading knives?
 
Roshi, I also feel that there is a problem with describing the condition of a knife. Even if the knife is NIB or LNIB it can have scratches on it that passed inspection from the factory or from distributor/sales people handling it. I really don't feel qualified to rate the condition of a knife other than to say it was NIB or as you said described what was done with the knife while in your possession. I just completed a trade of a used knife for a NIB and I sent emailed a high quality photo of the knife to the other person so that he could access it's condition.

I rather rely on photos if the trading/selling parties have that ability.
 
I believe there are some standards from an organization (ATKI?).

I'd like to see standards posted (as important) at the top of each trade/sale forum.

In the mean time, here is my take on the subject.

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"New", in my mind, means "never taken out of the box". This means no handling, no opening, never left the plastic since it left the factory. Mint should have much the same meaning.

Like new is a very vague term. I really despise the term LNIB.

I believe that if it was purchased and taken out of the plastic and box, it is no longer new. It is now "used". Even if it was just taken out of the box, and put back in and returned, it is used. It may be in very fine condition, but it is still used. I would liken this to sex: Have sex once, you are no longer a virgin. Just because it has only happened once, you can't go around calling yourself "like-virgin".

Another big problem not currently addressed is the difference in quality between factory knives. Just because a knife is NIB does not mean that it is "perfect" by any means. By purchasing a knife second hand, you place yourself at some risk. Buying a knife from a dealer, you have the option of returning the knife to the dealer for a refund or a new knife. Some warranties require that you be the original owner and have the receipt (Example: Benchmade). This means that if there is a problem with the knife, you're stuck with it, unless of course you manage to talk the original owner into sending it in, or refunding your money.

A true NIB knife, second hand, should sell for a lower price than the same knife from a dealer.

A used knife, second hand, should sell for a significantly lower price than from a dealer. There are NO guarantees that the person you're dealing with is being genuine or honest - you should not have to pay a premium for that knife, when you could buy it from a dealer.

Collectors knives are more difficult, since they can no longer be obtained from a dealer. Price should be set by market conditions. However, the market cannot determine a fair price without fair information.

My suggestion is rate knives in the following way.

1) Most important: New or Used? Must be a very strict definition.

2) If not NIB, then rate the following:
a) edge condition
b) blade condition
c) handle condition
d) lock condition
e) clip condition
f) box/papers condition

3) Why are you selling it?

4) Blade type - Serrated, Partially Serrated, Plain edge

If the knife is truly NIB, you can not rate #2, because you have never handled the knife.

Also, I don't include an overall rating, because I think it is usually completely meaningless. Many listings on ebay say something to the effect of "Laptop - small crack on front of screen, case scratched, used for 2 years, overall A++++!!!!!!" Yeah, right. I'm sure it's better than perfect, especially after 2 years use and with cracks and scratches.

For a scale, I would suggest something along the lines of:
Very Fine, Fine, Good, Acceptable, Poor, Very Poor

So, for a factory perfect knife that was taken out of the plastic, used to open a box and a few letters, and put away, it would be:

1) Used

2)
a) edge condition: Fine
b) blade condition: Fine
...

Since the blade was used, and is no longer in factory shape, it probably is not Very fine. If the blade was looked at, but not used, it would be in Very fine shape. Knives that come from the factory with nicks, dings, etc, would also not be in Very Fine shape.

I always want to know why someone is selling a knife. If the reason is something like "failed the spinewhack test" - you might want to steer clear of it. If its because "had a baby, need cash", you probably don't need to worry as much about the condition of the knife.

Also, many people forget to list the blade type. This can be a PITA if you're looking for something specific. If it's listed, I know what I'm trying to buy.

Anyways, I could elaborate further, but you probably get my point.

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Prices on bladeforums/knifeforums/ebay/etc fluctuate wildly.

Factory knives that are commonly available sell for prices very much higher than they should because they are either misrepresented or the buyer is not aware of what the knife should be worth.

Knives also sell for far less than they are worth, hurting the seller, because even with high demand, many buyers are not willing to purchase a knife with the risks of 2nd hand, and would rather buy from a dealer. Unless, of course, there is a steep discount. This also hurts the dealers, because they can't compete with the steep discounts, which are often far below wholesale.

Prices should be somewhat standardized, especially on factory blades. For example, I should not be able to purchase a Spyderco Military in very fine condition for $60 shipped, but, given time, I bet I could. I have gotten even better deals in the past. Most internet dealers have it in the $100 range. While a military in very fine used condition should not be $100, or even $95, it should certainly not be at less than $80. A bluebook would be helpful, but lacking that, good descriptions will work.

Also, I would like to comment that listing MSRP is also misleading. Very few dealers sell knives for anywhere near MSRP, except in special cases. A listing like "LNIB Military, MSRP $157.95, your price $95" sounds like a good deal - after all, you're getting a used knife at 60% of MSRP. Really though, you're not getting much of a deal at all as you don't know the condition, why they're selling, what kind of edge, etc...

With a good rating system in place, prices would be more fair to the buyer, the seller, and dealers. We'd have less disputes, and overall would have less problems, and probably more buyers and sellers. Because the "for sale forums" are for paying members only, it might also increase the number of paid memberships.

Just my $.02.

-- Rob
 
There are standards. They are set by the National Knife Collectors Association.
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
There are standards. They are set by the National Knife Collectors Association.
Click to expand...

Great! Where can we find a copy of them on the internet?

Can we post them at the top of each forum? I realize that it's not bf.com's responsibility to ensure safe or even fair transactions, but, it sure would be nice to have forum standards.

Thanks!
-- Rob
 
If you take it out of the plastic and box it is used!!!!! Hogwash.
Been collecting knives for 35+ and before I buy a knife I take it out of the box and check it out. Even if I buy it on the internet.Used??????????? Not hardly.

My .02
 
Originally posted by nifrand
If you take it out of the plastic and box it is used!!!!! Hogwash.
Been collecting knives for 35+ and before I buy a knife I take it out of the box and check it out. Even if I buy it on the internet.Used??????????? Not hardly.
Click to expand...

My opinion comes down to the fact that once a knife is out of the box, it's pretty hard to tell what happens to it.

Perhaps it only gets cycled once. With some people, that's enough to damage the stop pin.

Maybe they give it the old spinewhack test. Maybe they do it with a hammer.

Unless they're wearing gloves, they will get finger prints on it. While that might not ruin the knife, it could cause rust if the oil/sweat is left on there for a period of years.

Who knows? Knives don't have odometers like cars. It's might not be "used", but it's certainly not new. I've seen how a lot of people "check out" knives at Brick & Mortar stores. Gives me the chills.

I agree with you though - I also always like to check out a knife before buying, if possible. Just because a knife is in my "used" category doesn't necessarily mean that it is worth less. Factory knives come with varying QC, especially from certain companies. I probably would pay a mild premium over retail to buy a knife that I know is factory perfect from someone I respect.

Opinions of "new" vary alot; I'm just trying for the most strict standard. I don't think a true knife knut would hurt a blade - I just don't have any means of sorting the idiots from the knowledgeable over the internet.

My idea of "used" just means "proceed with caution".

Just my $.02.

BTW, Did anyone find the standards? I've been looking for the NKCA set of standards for 3 days. I've found 2 other sets, but none of them seem to be the NKCA standards.

Thanks!
-- Rob
 
The NKCA Grades

Mint: Absolutely new, exactly as shipped from the factory. A Mint knife has no blemishes. It was never carried, never sharpened, and never used. A Mint knife may be lightly oiled and wrapped with a soft rag. Any harsher cleaning will turn it into a Near Mint knife.

Near Mint: An unused knife with a few minor blemishes. It may show slight carry wear or age checking on the handles. The blade may have been lightly honed or show slight discoloration, even a tiny rust spot or two. Any original blade etch must be present and clear. Most of the original finish must be present.

Excellent: Up to 10% blade wear. All blades must "walk and talk." (To "walk" is to operate smoothly under tension from a backspring. To "talk" is to snap crisply when opened or shut. A blade that does not walk and talk is said to be "lazy.") Blades or handles may be discolored or cleaned.

Very Good or Good: Up to 25% blade wear. Slight cracks or chips in the handles. May have one lazy blade. All stampings clear. No replaced parts.

Fair: Up to 50% blade wear. Blades may be lazy. Large cracks or chips in the handles. Handles or blades may have been replaced with original parts. Stampings faint but legible.

Poor: Blades heavily worn. Handles broken or missing. Obviously replaced blade(s). Stampings faint or illegible.

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Obvisouly, these standards are very skewed toward traditional folding knives.

I have adapted them to balisong knives and published my standards which are widely used in the balisong community.

NIB = New In Box: Exactly as it came from the manufacturer including the original box and all paperwork. The knife is in Mint condition.
PR = Pristine: Knife is in absolutely mint condition and is outstanding!

MT = Mint: Knife is the same as it was when produced allowing for normal aging. Minor scratches on the tang due to gentle rotation of the handles and minor scratches on the handles due to latching are acceptable. Blade must have absolutely no evidence of use, sharpening, polishing, or any cleaning more aggressive than a gentle wipe with a soft cloth. Absolutely no evidence of manipulation (chips on the blade, damage to the latch, scratches on the handles, etc.). Tang stamps, etching, and inking are 100% perfect.

NM = Near Mint: Knife is nearly in mint condition. Any deviation from mint is very minor. If the knife has been expertly cleaned, it must appear as mint. Blade must have no evidence of use or sharpening. Handle inserts must not have any cracking or chips. Absolutely no evidence of manipulation. Tang stamps and etching are perfect. Inking is at least 95%.

EX = Excellent: Knife is in excellent condition. Minor cracking of handle inserts is acceptable as long the material is still in one piece. Blade may show minor wear but must still have original profile (i.e. not sharpened aggressively). Some discoloration of the blade and even one or two tiny rust freckles is acceptable as are minor signs of manipulation though the blade must not be chipped. Tang stamps and etching are perfect. Inking is at least 85%.

VG = Very Good: Knife is in very good condition. Blade and handles are original. Cracks in handle inserts are acceptable as long as no pieces are missing or glued or otherwise repaired. Blades may show up to 10% wear and discoloration including minor rust freckles. Tang stamps and etching are clear. Inking is at least 75%.

GD = Good: Knife is in good condition. Blade and handles are original. One or two small pieces of handle insert material may be missing. Blade may show up to 25% wear. Tang stamps and etching are legible. Inking is at least 65%.

I don't go below good. The only reason a collector would consider a knife below good is if it has some historic or technical value. In that case, the physical condition is much less important.
 
I personally follow the guideline as set out by the NKCA and feel that they are adequate to be used for all knives. NIB really tells me nothing about the real condition of the knife. I have seen NIB knives that I would grade as no where near mint. Many people would consider a knife they got from a dealer to be NIB, but that knife may have been sold to someone else, opened and used a little and then returned. Then after inspection by the dealer, if it looks new and works properly it is sold again as new. This happens a lot.

The usefulness of all these ratings is totally dependent on the knowledge of those that are doing the rating. One persons excellent may be another's near mint. Unless someone has had a fair deal of experience grading knives they will not know if their opinion of the quality of the knife will match the accepted parameters. As long as people do the best job they can of evaluating the condition of the knives they are selling, then I think the grades as set out by the NKCA are all that is required.
 
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