Starting with stones

[antikythera]

Hello all,
I have a Delica and an OD-2, both of which have been used for relatively benign tasks (i.e. cutting open cardboard boxes, rubber tubing, clamshell packaging, etc. :yawn. I don't plan on getting any large knives, or sharpening anything larger than a 5" santoku.

I figured it's high time I start sharpening the knives, so I started looking at these. That is, until I saw the rather small size of the whetstones (4 1/3 x 7/8 x 3/16).

I would like to keep the price under $100 (not including the obligatory beater knife to practice on), and preferably as close to $50 as possible.

I would like to (ideally, and after a fair bit of practice) get a nice mirror edge, but if that's not possible with a cheap set of stones, by all means, let me know!

So now that the background and budget are out of the way, here are the questions.

Is that set adequate? (Also, do I even need all of those grits? Am I right in thinking the stones are too small? Do the holes accomplish anything other than looking pretty and making a sales pitch?)

Should I invest in a set of 6" C and EF stones (~$46 + S/H) instead?

Should I look at something other than DMT stones? I picked DMT because I don't want to deal with "dishing," and would like the stones to last a long time with infrequent usage.


Thanks in advance!
Antikythera

 

[Any Cal.]

If you aren't planning on carrying the set in a backpack, don't get the little stone set.

You might get the Fine stone for sure, and add the EF if you want an even finer edge, or a Coarse if you are a little harder on the edges or want to reprofile them.

 

[gajinoz]

The DMT diamond stones work very well. Those round bits you see are not holes, they are the diamonds. The "interrupted" nature of them helps reduce metal build up and they are very effective.

If you plan on hand sharpening I would probably not go for that size of stone. If, however you want an effective system that uses stone of that size and will certainly work on 5" or less knives really well, have a look at the DMT Deluxe Aligner kit.

Here is a portable sharpening kit I made up using the aligner.

What you see there are the backs of the coarse, medium and fine stones. I use it on all of my small knives and they're easily made shaving sharp.

 

[antikythera]

The DMT diamond stones work very well. Those round bits you see are not holes, they are the diamonds. The "interrupted" nature of them helps reduce metal build up and they are very effective.

Um... not to be nit-picky or anything, but...

These products carry our signature polka-dot pattern surfaces. The polka dots are slightly recessed so that during sharpening the metal fines (known as swarf) and small amount of material that is being removed will fall into the polka dots and remain out of the way of the sharpening surface keeping the sharpening surface performing.

Nice to know they work, though.

That aside, is the aligner much better than the sharpmaker? What would it offer (other than holding the knife steady) vs. stones? This setup is intended to be stationary!

If I did get the stones, would a set of C/F/EF be sufficient for most usage, or would I need to get a strop and compound too?

 

[gajinoz]

Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "holes".

Anyway, the Sharpmaker, which I also have, and the Aligner are two different beasts. The sharpmaker has ceramic rods which are fine and not especially good at profiling an edge. Also, the Sharpmaker can be set for only two angles, 30 and 40. The Aligner has 4 or 5 different angles. The Sharpmaker is an excellent tool for maintaining an edge, if it's at 30 or 40 but you'll need to buy the diamond rods or wrap sandpaper around them if you want to profile.

The stones in the Aligner will reprofile relatively easily. In addition you can use the Aligner clamp to maintain and angle on your knife when using larger stones in a "freehand" style of sharpening if you wish.

Course, medium and fine stones will serve most purposes. As I said, the three in my kit will get all my knives literally shaving sharp.

 

[Any Cal.]

If I did get the stones, would a set of C/F/EF be sufficient for most usage, or would I need to get a strop and compound too?

Those stones would be good. If I had just a few knives to do though, and the edges were in really good shape, I would probably try to get away with just the F and EF, provided shipping costs wouldn't be prohibitive to get one or two more stones later if wanted.

The strop and compound aren't a must have, but are nice, IMO. It just depends on what you want. Just coming off the F stone you will have a nice edge, then the EF makes it sharper. You can strop and make it sharper yet. Or go to a Spyderco UF rod and then strop, and it will be sharper yet. When it is all said and done though, it was sharp just off the F stone.

The strop is nice for keeping your knives sharp without taking them to the stone. It seems like it works better for my kitchen knives than my work knives, but I am still learning at this too...

 

[antikythera]

Those stones would be good. If I had just a few knives to do though, and the edges were in really good shape, I would probably try to get away with just the F and EF, provided shipping costs wouldn't be prohibitive to get one or two more stones later if wanted.

The strop and compound aren't a must have, but are nice, IMO. It just depends on what you want. Just coming off the F stone you will have a nice edge, then the EF makes it sharper. You can strop and make it sharper yet. Or go to a Spyderco UF rod and then strop, and it will be sharper yet. When it is all said and done though, it was sharp just off the F stone.

The strop is nice for keeping your knives sharp without taking them to the stone. It seems like it works better for my kitchen knives than my work knives, but I am still learning at this too...

Okay, so what you are saying is:

F = Sharp
F -> EF = Sharper
F -> EF -> Strop = Even sharper
F -> Spydie UF (instead of EF?) -> Strop = Sharpest?

My Delica is fairly dull, so could I do without the Coarse stone? I was wondering about that to begin with (I knew I forgot to ask a question!), as I heard DMTs cut fast.

How much are strops, anyway? DMT compound isn't too expensive, ($22 for a set of 1,3,6 micron), but how about the strops themselves? Is there a whole lot of maintenance that goes into a strop?

And about the aligner, I wasn't planning on getting a kit (learn like the cavemen did!). However, the Aligner looks to be about travel-sized. Am I correct in this observation?

 

[Any Cal.]

Okay, so what you are saying is:

F = Sharp Yep
F -> EF = Sharper Yep
F -> EF -> Strop = Even sharper Yep
F -> EF-> Spydie UF -> Strop = Sharpest? Yep

My Delica is fairly dull, so could I do without the Coarse stone? I was wondering about that to begin with (I knew I forgot to ask a question!), as I heard DMTs cut fast. I would have said yes to that, but after my experience with my Cold Steel Kitchen knife today, I don't know... If you are paying shipping, and the knife is dull as in "tears paper rather than slices" you might want to go ahead and get the coarse.

How much are strops, anyway? DMT compound isn't too expensive, ($22 for a set of 1,3,6 micron), but how about the strops themselves? Is there a whole lot of maintenance that goes into a strop? The strops are cheap... You can buy them premade for less than $20 often if you want the leather, but knifenut also reccomends using balsa or MDF to put the compound on, which would be cheaper yet.

And about the aligner, I wasn't planning on getting a kit (learn like the cavemen did!). However, the Aligner looks to be about travel-sized. Am I correct in this observation? Yeppers.

.....

 

[Jason B.]

Get the DMT diafolds to start, add in the clamp and magnetic guide rod and you will be set.

Get the XC/C, C/F, EF/EEF, you end up with two coarse stones but its the only way to get all those grits and have them work with the aligner. Trust me you want the XC.

Once the stones break-in you won't even need a strop to have hair splitting sharpness.

 

[antikythera]

Get the DMT diafolds to start, add in the clamp and magnetic guide rod and you will be set.

Get the XC/C, C/F, EF/EEF, you end up with two coarse stones but its the only way to get all those grits and have them work with the aligner. Trust me you want the XC.

Once the stones break-in you won't even need a strop to have hair splitting sharpness.

No, the Delica still slices, but not too well.

The UF seems a bit expensive, though. Does it make an increase in sharpness (after proper use) proportional to its cost?

knifenut, any particular reason for balsa/mdf rather than leather?

Why the diafolds? Wouldn't a set of the actual slabs be easier to use? And how come you recommend a guide system?

This is all new to me, so I'm just wondering why you suggest what you do, just to aid in my understanding of all this.

 

[Jason B.]

By a guess I would say your sharpening experience is limited?

The aligner will help teach you the proper techniques and is a multi use tool that will bring you results now. It can be used with the rod and stones or down the road with bench stones.

My above recommendations are based on your budget, skill level, and results you are looking for. I also factor in future upgrades to your sharpening equipment, basically its advice I wish I could have given myself years ago.

Balsa and MDF show better results for the use of DMT compound, not surprising considering that's what DMT suggests.

 

[antikythera]

By a guess I would say your sharpening experience is limited?

The aligner will help teach you the proper techniques and is a multi use tool that will bring you results now. It can be used with the rod and stones or down the road with bench stones.

My above recommendations are based on your budget, skill level, and results you are looking for. I also factor in future upgrades to your sharpening equipment, basically its advice I wish I could have given myself years ago.

Balsa and MDF show better results for the use of DMT compound, not surprising considering that's what DMT suggests.

Yup! If by "limited" you mean "virtually nonexistent."

Okay. Just out of curiosity, why the diafolds? Other than the multiple grits per... diafold, isn't the relatively small size a problem?

And why is the XC really important? Wouldn't that remove too much material too quickly from smaller knives?

Balsa is nice and cheap, so that's nice.

Thanks for all the help so far!

 

[ASBOB]

I've had a Sharpmaker for several years, and it is terrific for touchups. I wanted to try full-on sharpening, however, and I got this system:

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/India-and-SoftHard-Arkansas-Kit-P321C100.aspx

It has been excellent. I can now take butter knife level blades and get them retty sharp. I also have a strop. I would call John at Sharpening Suupplies and he'll give you good advise. As will the folks here.

 

[Jason B.]

Diamonds being too coarse is a myth, they are just as coarse as similar stones of similar grits. The difference is that they don't slow down with harder steels like other stones will. The coarse grit is really not that coarse and is slow for setting bevels, something you will need to do.


The diafolds are one of the best tools you can get IMO, also being able to hold the stone will help your understanding of how the stone follows the bevel. It also helps with pressure control, something that is very important with diamonds, less pressure the better.

If you travel or like the outdoors the diafolds also work great for that as they are light yet highly effective.

Basically it gets you started with high quality tools that will produce high level results at a relatively low cost. It also sets you in a good direction to expand your tools without the regret of buying things you can't add to.

For example: I started with the 6x2 DMT's but quickly realized I needed larger stones and the XXC and EEF stones do not come in the 6x2 size. So now after spending money on the 6x2 stones I had to respend the money for the same grits in a more useable size stone that contained all the grits needed.

Nothing sucks more than realizing you purchased the wrong tools or ones you can't easily expand on.

 

[antikythera]

Diamonds being too coarse is a myth, they are just as coarse as similar stones of similar grits. The difference is that they don't slow down with harder steels like other stones will. The coarse grit is really not that coarse and is slow for setting bevels, something you will need to do.


The diafolds are one of the best tools you can get IMO, also being able to hold the stone will help your understanding of how the stone follows the bevel. It also helps with pressure control, something that is very important with diamonds, less pressure the better.

If you travel or like the outdoors the diafolds also work great for that as they are light yet highly effective.

Basically it gets you started with high quality tools that will produce high level results at a relatively low cost. It also sets you in a good direction to expand your tools without the regret of buying things you can't add to.

For example: I started with the 6x2 DMT's but quickly realized I needed larger stones and the XXC and EEF stones do not come in the 6x2 size. So now after spending money on the 6x2 stones I had to respend the money for the same grits in a more useable size stone that contained all the grits needed.

Nothing sucks more than realizing you purchased the wrong tools or ones you can't easily expand on.

Okay, so the diafolds can serve double duty as both normal (if smallish) stones and excellent travel stones.

Couldn't I use a XC/C, an F single sided, and then an EF/EEF, to save $10?

And the main benefit of the diafold setup over my original plan is the handles and the EEF?