State of Japanese, Chitana and similar swords and similar ephemera

[Kohai999]

STeven,

What do you think of Bugei ?

Doug

Bugei Trading Company got started by one very serious swordsman, James Williams. I know him well and respect him, but we often differ on a variety of perspectives concerning training philosophy and tools.

Around 2000, they were THE place to get Paul Chen swords and Howard Clark swords....the market has expanded greatly beyond those confines

James has a preference for long tsuka, some up to 14", which is vastly too long for me. If you have enormous hands you may like his proportional preferences.

I think his contribution to a lower priced, performance based Chitana in the form of the Raptor line is some of the best product on the market for entry level using swords.

Most of the JSA swords coming from China, Pakistan, India and even the Philippines have some serious issues:

1. The wood used in the core is often shaped wrong and may be the wrong choice of wood to begin with, brittle and prone to breakage.
2. The panel approach to same' overlay is problematic, as same' was meant to reinforce the wood core against damage and breakage. Even CAS Hanwei often uses panels for tsukamaki, and in a cutting sword this is less than ideal. If cutting a difficult target, I go for one of my cutting swords that has a full same' wrap
3. The fittings-fuchi/kashira, menuki and tsuba are often made of plated copper or plastic. I prefer steel fittings and this is where CAS Hanwei sits head and shoulders above the competition.
4. I'm real suspicious of heat treat. Extensive cutting with the CAS Hanwei swords that I own has instilled as much confidence as necessary to compete with them and do public demonstrations. If the blade is too soft, it bends and takes a set that can be disastrous to remove. If the blade is too hard, it can shatter. Neither is acceptable.

I don't chime in on a lot of "What sword should I buy?" threads here because the variables are too great, and oftentimes posters have their own agenda and no real interest in having a practical, experienced perspective to counter their ignorance, so it becomes a waste of time.

I think that if cheap sword-like-objects are super popular now, then a some of those folks will become more interested and want the real thing, just as knife collectors and users often eventually move on from cheapies to really nice knives as their tastes evolve and become more keen.

As far as a shortage of qualified teachers in Chinese swordsmanship, there is a huge number of kung fu schools that teach weapon forms, and are filled with young students, at least on the West coast. More teachers will emerge. I bet we'll start to see jian and dao sparring just like we already see with the ARMA folks and other sword styles.

Sorry, I don't want to be a thread-derailer!

Maybe Sam. Collecting swords take up way more space than collecting knives, but you never know!

Problem with kung fu schools is that again, there are a lot of UNQUALIFIED teachers. It's easy to make up stuff as you go along, we see that in JSA as well. There is more crappy instruction than qualified instruction and that is problematic.

Sparring for the sake of sparring doesn't teach anything good if there is not a grounded philosophy behind it.

Martial arts training, especially in Japan, is geared to give you the skills to become lethal at your discipline, but to also give you confidence, etiquette and self-control so that you don't turn out to be a dangerous psychopath with a romantic streak. Without qualified instruction, we will simply have more random sword wielding lunatics giving lawmakers all the reason they need to continue banning things. It's already happening in NYC with machetes now.

Any reasonable questions will be happily entertained at this point in this thread.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Mecha]

Maybe Sam. Collecting swords take up way more space than collecting knives, but you never know!

Problem with kung fu schools is that again, there are a lot of UNQUALIFIED teachers. It's easy to make up stuff as you go along, we see that in JSA as well. There is more crappy instruction than qualified instruction and that is problematic.

Sparring for the sake of sparring doesn't teach anything good if there is not a grounded philosophy behind it.

Martial arts training, especially in Japan, is geared to give you the skills to become lethal at your discipline, but to also give you confidence, etiquette and self-control so that you don't turn out to be a dangerous psychopath with a romantic streak. Without qualified instruction, we will simply have more random sword wielding lunatics giving lawmakers all the reason they need to continue banning things. It's already happening in NYC with machetes now.

Any reasonable questions will be happily entertained at this point in this thread.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Haha! The bannings will continue, of that I have no doubt.

Chinese martial arts certainly do have a huge emphasis on discipline and philosophy. The state of kung fu is one of resurgence at the moment, and I think there is a big void that will quickly be filled in the coming years. After the Chinese civil war and the devastation of the Cultural Revolution, many schools were crushed and laid low, and a lot of knowledge is out there simmering, ready to spring back. The PLA even shelled vast Shaolin temples and libraries with artillery as target practice during their zeal to eliminate centers of culture and identity that posed a challenge to the Communist's narrative. It was only 1982 when China "opened up to the world" and teachers (who were young during the cultural revolution and saw many of their schools mandated as public "sporting" institutions and their arts watered down), started establishing more and more schools around the world.

The pattern is not unlike the more obscure art of capoeira:

Capoeira goes back several hundred years. It was nearly wiped out after Princess Isabella of Brazil was deposed in the late 1800s by a military coup, as the capoeiristas, who were a force to be reckoned with, had supported her against her enemies. To survive, capoeira went underground until the new regime had established itself as the head honcho in Brazil. During this time, capoeira was refined into two well-defined, disciplined branches. During the early 1900s, it re-emerged and began to be held aloft as a great part of Brazil's culture and identity, practically a national sport.

Now, there are capoeira schools all over the world and its popularity continues to soar. And let me tell you, there was nothing that pissed off my maestre (sensei) like bad capoeira being taught incorrectly. He often talked at length in his thick Brazilian accent about how improper schools and unqualified instructors were getting students hurt and harming the art with bad teachings. He seemed to feel as if there was almost a huge battle out there in the world to keep the capoeira's teachings proper.

I think that kung fu weapon instruction may be in somewhat of the same boat. It's popularity will rise all around the world, and there will be many a ciphu's eye twitching with irritation at the poor instruction that they see being spread around (as if there isn't already). My ciphu told me explicitly that wushu weapons training at her school in Beijing was originally not just for sport, it was a more of a gray area, but they were forced in the simplified, sporting direction by the new government at the time. Nowadays, China's government holds kung fu aloft as a great part of the country's culture and identity, practically a national sport.

What does this have to do with swords? Well simply, I think that as kung fu sword training becomes more popular and of higher quality (fills the void as it springs back and spreads around the world), there will be a growing cadre of practitioners who desire to own and train with really high-quality swords, and there will be more appreciation for Chinese sword types in general, much like there is now for the katana. There are many places to get a great katana or authentic nihonto, but I see a lack of fine Chinese-style swords out there, maybe I'm wrong about that!

My little brother has been studying kung fu for years and years, and he even taught kids classes for a few years. It seems like every school is packed with youngsters who yearn to be as great as their teachers in the use of swords and such. Someday in the near future many of them will want the best dao or jian they can get!

 

[Doug C]

I think his contribution to a lower priced, performance based Chitana in the form of the Raptor line is some of the best product on the market for entry level using swords.

Thank you very much for the thread, STeven, your knowledge and experience are appreciated.
I am def starting "VERY entry level" ground floor.
Thanks for the nod at the Raptor line I've looked at them(online) and the Crane 5160 Cutting Sword and the Samurai 5160 Cutting Sword, I've also been looking at.

Doug

 

[Insipid Moniker]

This is honestly far above my head, but a very interesting read nonetheless. Thank you for your thoughts and experiences.

 

[Kohai999]

What does this have to do with swords? Well simply, I think that as kung fu sword training becomes more popular and of higher quality (fills the void as it springs back and spreads around the world), there will be a growing cadre of practitioners who desire to own and train with really high-quality swords, and there will be more appreciation for Chinese sword types in general, much like there is now for the katana. There are many places to get a great katana or authentic nihonto, but I see a lack of fine Chinese-style swords out there, maybe I'm wrong about that!

It is probably as hard or harder to make a good dao or jian as a katana. There have been multiple attempts by CAS Hanwei to get the ball rolling, as in the Goose Quill Saber, and there was also an aesthetically lovely jian, BUT they were expensive and the market did not respond favorably.

The Cutting Jian is still available, and I would like to get one.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Mecha]

It is probably as hard or harder to make a good dao or jian as a katana. There have been multiple attempts by CAS Hanwei to get the ball rolling, as in the Goose Quill Saber, and there was also an aesthetically lovely jian, BUT they were expensive and the market did not respond favorably.

The Cutting Jian is still available, and I would like to get one.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

For me, the standard bigass dao is the most natural thing to forge!

This topic is very interesting. I have too much to say about it, and don't know enough about it. I keep writing things then deleting them. It's not just about the looming potential of some serious demand for high-level Chinese swords, it's about very real, potent swords that meet the desires of a new age where they are still wanted despite that new alpha weapons dominate. New designs that take advantage of new materials and push for different extremes in performance and effect. Dan Keffeler's swords are a perfect example, one of the only examples.

Of course I'm super biased because I really believe in the beta ti swords and will design them accordingly.

When I lived in a big city to attend college, many of my friends and acquaintances didn't have guns, or even thought they were distasteful. But damn near all of them had at least one sword, even if it was a mall ninja type. When people find out I make swords, they launch into their sword stories, and everybody has one. Just a few weeks ago a gentleman told me about taking one of his dad's authentic katanas and beating the crap out of an old sofa with it when he was a lad. Ya, his dad wasn't happy. He's all grown up and now the sword is his.

There is almost nobody I talk to who doesn't want a sword, a real one. Everyone loves them.

Furthermore, ladies love swords. Nobody wants to believe that, but it's true. I told a friend that last year and he railed against the idea. Coincidentally, a few days later his girlfriend busted a sword out of her closet and showed it off. He admitted that I might be right.

 

[Kohai999]

For me, the standard bigass dao is the most natural thing to forge!

This topic is very interesting. I have too much to say about it, and don't know enough about it. I keep writing things then deleting them. It's not just about the looming potential of some serious demand for high-level Chinese swords, it's about very real, potent swords that meet the desires of a new age where they are still wanted despite that new alpha weapons dominate. New designs that take advantage of new materials and push for different extremes in performance and effect. Dan Keffeler's swords are a perfect example, one of the only examples.

Of course I'm super biased because I really believe in the beta ti swords and will design them accordingly.

When I lived in a big city to attend college, many of my friends and acquaintances didn't have guns, or even thought they were distasteful. But damn near all of them had at least one sword, even if it was a mall ninja type. When people find out I make swords, they launch into their sword stories, and everybody has one. Just a few weeks ago a gentleman told me about taking one of his dad's authentic katanas and beating the crap out of an old sofa with it when he was a lad. Ya, his dad wasn't happy. He's all grown up and now the sword is his.

There is almost nobody I talk to who doesn't want a sword, a real one. Everyone loves them.

Furthermore, ladies love swords. Nobody wants to believe that, but it's true. I told a friend that last year and he railed against the idea. Coincidentally, a few days later his girlfriend busted a sword out of her closet and showed it off. He admitted that I might be right.

You must live in Middle Earth.

My wife has a foil, but nobody else on the street I live on has one sword.

People at my dojo have significantly less knowledge AND interest in Chinese swords than Japanese.

At the CHINESE martial arts center down the street from my house, a friend teaches, even many of the blackbelts there have limited knowledge of the swords themselves, although they are trained in forms.

What I am describing was the situation for JSA swords in 2000, and in 10 years we may be looking back at Chinese swords going...."rember when you couldn't get a good one? Hahahahaa."

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Mecha]

You must live in Middle Earth.

My wife has a foil, but nobody else on the street I live on has one sword.

People at my dojo have significantly less knowledge AND interest in Chinese swords than Japanese.

At the CHINESE martial arts center down the street from my house, a friend teaches, even many of the blackbelts there have limited knowledge of the swords themselves, although they are trained in forms.

What I am describing was the situation for JSA swords in 2000, and in 10 years we may be looking back at Chinese swords going...."rember when you couldn't get a good one? Hahahahaa."

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Sounds like you need some nerdier friends.

Would you say the appreciation for Japanese swords and culture in general is much higher now in the West than it was say, 30 years ago? I think the interest in Chinese swords and culture now is where it was for Japan in 1980, and it will grow a lot in the future. It goes back too far, it has too much history not to.

So perhaps the state of swords, to someone who wants to make them, is something like this:

Mall ninja swords, fantasy wall-hangers and fake katanas: Selling like hotcakes

High-quality functional replicas: ??

High-performance handmade models: Rare, and dominated by Japanese-style swords (I guess this includes actual nihonto), with a decent sprinkling of European styles?

Militaria/sabres: Lots of authentic ones around for good prices

 

[Kohai999]

Would you say the appreciation for Japanese swords and culture in general is much higher now in the West than it was say, 30 years ago? I think the interest in Chinese swords and culture now is where it was for Japan in 1980, and it will grow a lot in the future. It goes back too far, it has too much history not to.

I would say appreciation for Japanese culture may be higher now than it was 30 years ago, but elements of it, not the culture in totality.

For instance, Japanese Law Enforcement can hold you for a LONG time before you get a court date. You would NOT want police to act in the US the way they do in Japan.

The Japanese sword dealers had more customers 20 years ago....I have no idea how they are looking at the market right now as a general group.

I've touched enough on what I think about the Chinese-style swords, feel free to continue that discussion without me.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Mecha]

I would say appreciation for Japanese culture may be higher now than it was 30 years ago, but elements of it, not the culture in totality.

For instance, Japanese Law Enforcement can hold you for a LONG time before you get a court date. You would NOT want police to act in the US the way they do in Japan.

The Japanese sword dealers had more customers 20 years ago....I have no idea how they are looking at the market right now as a general group.

I've touched enough on what I think about the Chinese-style swords, feel free to continue that discussion without me.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

For sure! Thanks for your thoughts, Kohai999.

The only reason I bring up the Chinese-style swords is that I think they have the most potential for growth in popularity and appreciation within the world of swords.

 

[Professor_Jack]

I think the difference between the market saturation for japanese and chinese weapons is down to culture.
Ask any weaboo kid what the best kind of sword is, he'll tell you its a katana. Part of that is because he's a weaboo kid who wants to be Kenshin/Jin/Kyo/etc, but also, japanese culture/media (for lack of a better word) perpetuates this. The whole exported idea of samurai is "my sword is the most powerful thing, its indestructible and can cut through anything". The character is important, but he's also the man who carries his weapon around. without him, how would the weapon kill anyone? And then if the character is disarmed, he's suddenly unable to fight until he can get back his sword.
Chinese export media, on the other hand, is about the individual. The character might use a particular weapon, but the focus is never on the use OF said weapon, its always on the person holding it. Gordon Liu might only use a jointed pole the whole movie, but the focus is never on his UNDEFEATABLE POLE/NUNCHAKU COMBINATION! but the man holding the weapon.
All this is further compounded by the fact that japan has ONE weapon that is on display while china has half a million.
In short, japanese export media is a lot of posturing, chinese export media is a lot of flowery complicated movements.
It plants this seed in the casual observer's mind that japanese stuff is "easier" to pick up and imitate, and so they do. Chinese stuff is complicated and requires effort>

Note that i'm not saying this is TRUE, Japanese martial arts are just as difficult/nuanced as any other, but its ubiquity causes an effect of watering it down in public consciousness.

 

[kaotikross]

I think the difference between the market saturation for japanese and chinese weapons is down to culture.
Ask any weaboo kid what the best kind of sword is, he'll tell you its a katana. Part of that is because he's a weaboo kid who wants to be Kenshin/Jin/Kyo/etc, but also, japanese culture/media (for lack of a better word) perpetuates this. The whole exported idea of samurai is "my sword is the most powerful thing, its indestructible and can cut through anything". The character is important, but he's also the man who carries his weapon around. without him, how would the weapon kill anyone? And then if the character is disarmed, he's suddenly unable to fight until he can get back his sword.
Chinese export media, on the other hand, is about the individual. The character might use a particular weapon, but the focus is never on the use OF said weapon, its always on the person holding it. Gordon Liu might only use a jointed pole the whole movie, but the focus is never on his UNDEFEATABLE POLE/NUNCHAKU COMBINATION! but the man holding the weapon.
All this is further compounded by the fact that japan has ONE weapon that is on display while china has half a million.
In short, japanese export media is a lot of posturing, chinese export media is a lot of flowery complicated movements.
It plants this seed in the casual observer's mind that japanese stuff is "easier" to pick up and imitate, and so they do. Chinese stuff is complicated and requires effort>

Note that i'm not saying this is TRUE, Japanese martial arts are just as difficult/nuanced as any other, but its ubiquity causes an effect of watering it down in public consciousness.

I agree. I also think most remember the "Sick Man of Asia" and therefore attribute a more "victorious" history to Japanese Martial Arts.