State of the art in wootz/bulat?

vanadium

vanadium

Joined
Apr 5, 2003
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I was fascinated when this article appeared in Scientific American in 2000, elucidating the nature of traditional wootz/bulat steel, due to the work of the late great maker Al Pendray and the metallurgist John D. Verhoeven (which modern pattern-welded "Damascus" steels had only emulated in appearance, after the original methods were lost):

https://imgur.com/a/3GRkr

At the time, I thought this article would represent the beginning of wootz steel coming back into knifemaking in a big way, but as far as I can tell, that hasn't happened. For all of the great work being done on damascus these days, it's not wootz.

What happened? Why isn't wootz a big deal? Personally I find the subtlety of the appearance of wootz to be stunning and I'd love to see it in more knives. And more important than appearance, does anyone have experiences with making serious use of a wootz/bulat knife, whether modern (post-Pendray) or traditional (pre-20th-Century)?
 
Historically fascinating. Roselli makes knives in what he calls wootz. But modern steels are way better.
 
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Something else I noticed: Olamic mentions the Pendray/Verhoeven work on their web page here, although they don't mention wootz or bulat by name. Are they making wootz?
 
Russian wootz, bulat, is still made, knife makers can buy it to use.

There is a member here, MS Jean-Louis Regel, who smelts his own stainless steel wootz. You can see it on his website:
http://www.jeanlouis-knives.com/

It looks exactly like what you would imagine stainless steel wootz would look like.

As far as I know, the historical blades made in Damascus that made the city famous for blades were made with wootz that came from India in big pucks, along trade routes, and were then made into blades. Today's pattern-welded steel isn't what would have been called "Damascus," but somewhere along the line it came to be used to describe pattern welded steel. Probably a lot more to the story though.

I would LOVE to make a wootz knife.
 
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I've never understood the interest in wootz. Modern pattern welded and folded damascus are prettier, and it's not like magical wootz is going to outperform modern steels, so what is the point, really?
 
evilgreg said:
it's not like magical wootz is going to outperform modern steels, so what is the point, really?
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I think there's some amount of romance around wootz because it was a secret lost to the ages. If we had continuity in its production it would probably be less interesting. Maybe if we lose the 440C formula we can have makers passing off their own homebrew steel as real 440C with all its magical properties.
 
From replies so far, and the NatGeo article above, I surmise the answer is that the performance doesn't stand up to modern steels. But however likely that is, it rings a bit hollow without testing. Strange that arguments persist over 'legends' (cutting falling silk etc.) when there are plenty of wootz swords that could be subjected to experimentation.
 
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Where legends and myths are concerned , I try to keep an open mind without letting my brain fall out .

I've spent considerable time out in this semi-wilderness , backwoods area and heard many bizarre tales from other wise sane and mostly sober persons that I did not consider to be fools . In just a few years a given incident will grow noticeably in the details and level of certitude . ;)
 
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Hi, we ourselves are not making wootz/bulat, and the article was cited to bring attention to vanadium (appropriately enough considering your user name) since our damascus is high carbon vanadium. A few years back we worked with some bladesmiths in Ukraine who did make us real wootz to use on a couple of knives. It was hitting past 60 rockwell, had the appropriate pattern/forging method, and the cutting performance was incredible. I won't link anything here to avoid self-promotion but if anyone wants to know more just DM or email.

vanadium said:
Something else I noticed: Olamic mentions the Pendray/Verhoeven work on their web page here, although they don't mention wootz or bulat by name. Are they making wootz?
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Mecha said:
... There is a member here, MS Jean-Louis Regel...
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Here is one of his elegant (not flashy) wootz knife. It speaks to me, as in "Don't drool on it, it's not stainless. And you can't afford it." Just like when I look at $30,000 shotguns at the gun show. I keep my hands behind me and stand off a bit.

http://www.jeanlouis-knives.com/2016/05/08/401/

IMG_5002-1024x683.jpg
 
vanadium said:
From replies so far, and the NatGeo article above, I surmise the answer is that the performance doesn't stand up to modern steels. But however likely that is, it rings a bit hollow without testing. Strange that arguments persist over 'legends' (cutting falling silk etc.) when there are plenty of wootz swords that could be subjected to experimentation.
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Wootz is a hard steel to find. I have a knife made out of it. It cuts and cuts and cuts, even when it is dull it acts like it is serrated and still cuts pretty good. One of the best steels I have used by far.
 
vanadium said:
Something else I noticed: Olamic mentions the Pendray/Verhoeven work on their web page here, although they don't mention wootz or bulat by name. Are they making wootz?
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Makandr who posts a ton of knives on his “tactical fixed” thread had made some knives he claims are real bulat. I asked him “are these pattern welded or real bulat?” He claimed they were real bulat.

@makandr can we get some pictures of your bulat knives?
 
why didn't it catch on?

how long and how labor intensive is it to make? if extensive it could cost a lot making it not mainstream and easily obtained to the majority of people.
 
Mo2 said:
why didn't it catch on?

how long and how labor intensive is it to make? if extensive it could cost a lot making it not mainstream and easily obtained to the majority of people.
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That pretty much defines an exclusive or "custom " product ( if you ignore the "specially built for a specific customer" aspect ). Some things catch on for reasons of aesthetics , fashion and style rather than inherent superior design or functional performance .
 
Mo2 said:
how long and how labor intensive is it to make? if extensive it could cost a lot making it not mainstream and easily obtained to the majority of people.
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Totally true. And yet that hasn't stopped expensive decorative materials like "mokuti" from becoming standard fare in a certain price bracket. I would think that, given it's place in history, and potential to be really beautiful, and the possibility that it's a very functional material (see especially Olamic's comment above!) wootz would at least have a visible niche instead of being mostly obscure. Maybe it's time for a wootz craze? It would be better than the 1/4" blade stock folder craze. ;)
 
vanadium said:
Totally true. And yet that hasn't stopped expensive decorative materials like "mokuti" from becoming standard fare in a certain price bracket. I would think that, given it's place in history, and potential to be really beautiful, and the possibility that it's a very functional material (see especially Olamic's comment above!) wootz would at least have a visible niche instead of being mostly obscure. Maybe it's time for a wootz craze? It would be better than the 1/4" blade stock folder craze. ;)
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A wootz craze? Get ready to see a bunch of shoddy supposedly "wootz" fidget spinners selling for 4 large on Instagram. :D
 
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