Status of Elephant Ivory

K

kootenay joe

BANNED
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
1,566
A ban on the sale of elephant ivory would affect Traditional knives more than any other genre of knives. There are many vintage USA, British & German knives going back about 150 years and up to say end of WW II that have ivory handles. There are Traditional style knives made recently with ivory, production and custom.
Does anyone know what the current status is of the ban on elephant ivory ?
Is it still legal to post ivory handled knives in the "For Sale" forums here at BF ?
Are dealers trying to unload their ivory knives prior to a ban coming into effect ?
This is not to be a discussion of the merits or stupidity of a ban.
I am asking what the current status is or likely soon will be, and how it might affect collectors, who like myself, have many ivory handled knives.
thanks, kj
 
I think there's a couple of threads about this in the 'Knife Laws' section Joe :thumbup:
 
Jack, where does the 'Knife laws' section live ? i can't find it. Tried to before i posted here.
kj
 
As a collector who has a few ivories I am not worried about a total Ban - I cant imagine the Ivory squad busting in the doors and seizing all the Jewellery, Antique hair Brush sets, Carvings, knives, Cutlery, hair pins, Knitting needles, Snooker Balls...geez it goes on and on.
Also as a collector you will always know another collector who will want to buy your knives.
E-Bay wont allow Ivory items for sale so sellers get around that with a description of bone.
 
Thanks Jack. There is no thread in the 'Knife Laws' forum that discusses the questions i ask in my O.P.
This is of most concern to collectors of Traditional knives and i would like to hear how others think it will affect us.
If the Moderators think this thread should be moved to a different forum, i am fine with that. Basically wherever the most knowledgeable discussion can take place is best.
For example: if ivory is banned then knife purveyors will no longer be able to list such knives online. If you as a collector has few custom knives with ivory that cost you over $1000 each, then these become hard to sell if you cannot post pics online.
There are collectors who specifically collect ivory handled knives (vintage and custom). Will they have to hide these knives that now could not legally be sold ?
etc.
kj
 
There is a big difference between federal statute (law) and federal regulation, as well as, additional differences exist with presidential executive orders.
Federal Regulations are developed through executive branch rulemaking. Federal Regulations can only be promulgated by authority granted to certain executive branch secretaries/bureaus when an Act of Congress (federal law/statute) grants such authority. My understanding is the Fish And Wildlife Service is going to add additional prohibitions to the commercial and non-commercial transfer, use and possession regulations that are currently in place. What is interesting is that the FWS cites the Presidential Executive Order as a reason for the rulemaking. Presidential EO's do not give an executive branch bureau the authority to conduct this rulemaking. Thus FWS must Cite the Endanger Species Act as the authority to conduct this rulemaking. Whether the Endangered Species Act in fact grants FWS the authority to limit ivory trade to the extent FWS seeks, well that for an expensive lawyer to determine through research or lawsuit against FWS.
Another aspect is that holders of antique or legally possessed elephant ivory that are able to engage in commerce today, but would not after publication of the new regulation, may be able file a claim against the federal government for a "federal takings".
Go to these two links to determine if the rule would affect you:
Www.fws.gov/international/pdf/african-elephant-4d-proposed-changes.pdf
 
What is troubling for those that posses traditional pocket knives with covers made from elephant ivory, that was legally possessed and used, and do not have the certificate, that certain sfo distributors have and do not send a copy of (when selling an ivory clad knife) will not be able to legally transfer the knife in the future. That's my first take from the overview page.
I am no lawyer and could be reading it wrong, so interpret all of 5he two above posts with this in mind.
 
Nixelplix said:
I find the use of elephant ivory on anything disgusting. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

This is exactly where KJ doesn't want this thread to go...everyone has their opinion but he wasn't asking for it knowing that it would completely overshadow the point of the thread.
 
Last edited:
Rockon75, thank you. very informative.
Nixelplix, the purpose of this thread is not to debate the morality or lack of, regarding the use of ivory. The purpose is to try to understand how such a ban might affect the tens of thousands of collectible pocket knives with ivory handles that are in collections in the USA right now.
Thanks for keeping 'on track'.
kj
 
I'm going to move this to Knife Laws. I'll leave a permanent link here.
 
Last edited:
Seems like a natural thread for the knife laws forum. The OP isn't actually asking about traditional knives; he's asking about the legalities of owning and trading a certain type of knife.
 
:thumbup:
Jsega51 said:
This is exactly where KJ doesn't want this thread to go...everyone has their opinion but he wasn't asking for it knowing that it would completely overshadow the point of the thread.
Click to expand...

Exactly.....thank you Jake.
 
Having collected over the years enough slabs of pre-ban elephant ivory to make about 30+ knife cover pairs for knives up to 5" long, or an equal number of Colt 1911 grips, I too have some concerns about where all this is going. I have had two knife makers decline to make me knives, or recover existing knives, using my ivory, so it's a wait and see what happens. While I am vehemently opposed to the slaughter of elephants by poachers simply for their tusks, I strongly believe that elephants that die of natural causes, or as a result of animal predator incidents, should have the tusks harvested for re-sale.
 
Campbellclanman said:
As a collector who has a few ivories I am not worried about a total Ban - I cant imagine the Ivory squad busting in the doors and seizing all the Jewellery, Antique hair Brush sets, Carvings, knives, Cutlery, hair pins, Knitting needles, Snooker Balls...geez it goes on and on.
Also as a collector you will always know another collector who will want to buy your knives.
E-Bay wont allow Ivory items for sale so sellers get around that with a description of bone.
Click to expand...
The ban is not a ban on ivory, per se, but a ban on the sale, trade, and transfer (less passing down family lines with estates) of ivory. I tend to agree with such proposals.
 
Last edited:
leghog, this ban would include ivory that is already in circulation on knives, hair brushes, sewing kits, etc. much of it from elephants that died about 100 years ago. Collectors with ivory handled knives would not even be able to give them away other than to family members. The long term result will be that many of these very fine examples of the cutlers' art will be destroyed because family members often are not interested in inheriting knives.
I see no benefit to this and do not understand the reasoning that brings you to agree with this ban on ivory.
I agree with a ban on any new ivory being used commercially. I think this already exists ?
kj
 
kootenay joe said:
leghog, this ban would include ivory that is already in circulation on knives, hair brushes, sewing kits, etc. much of it from elephants that died about 100 years ago. Collectors with ivory handled knives would not even be able to give them away other than to family members. The long term result will be that many of these very fine examples of the cutlers' art will be destroyed because family members often are not interested in inheriting knives.
I see no benefit to this and do not understand the reasoning that brings you to agree with this ban on ivory.
I agree with a ban on any new ivory being used commercially. I think this already exists ?
kj
Click to expand...
''This ban"? What ban is that? The only bans I've seen proposed for the USA by cognizant authorities in the USA have been bans on the sale, trade, barter, transfer, and commerce in ivory. Not bans on the ownership of ivory legal today or the passing of it via estates.

Please post a link to this ban on the ownership of all ivory.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top