Steel Ceiling

[Apebrains]

WOO HOO, GONE TO DA PLATINUM!

Okay, now that that's out of my system

Gotta ask, will there ever be a "Steel Ceiling"? By that I mean, what prevents a steel from becoming the greatest alloy on Earth? Will there ever be a point where we make a steel that just does everything and does it perfectly, or is there a reason why that hasn't happened? It seems like as time goes on, steel continues to get better, and is capable of more extraordinary things, but for a science that's been around for so long, I would think that we'd have something absolutely Earth shattering by now. In the last 50 years, the jump in say, phone technology has been astronomical, but the steel from Feudal Japan is considered by some to be, by some, at least as good as what we have today. And yet, the s30v's and 154cm's are touted as the greatest thing going in the industry.

So where's the beef? Anyone care to weigh in on what they know?

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

The only time i think we'll get the perfect steel is when sharpening becomes unnecessary and we can smack them on metal and pry things apart without damage lol. But then there would be no fun in owning a knife.

 

[UpChUcK]

I'd like to think that someday there will be just a single "knife steel" that didn't compromise edge holding, toughness, impact strength, etc. But that would be Utopia... or would it?

 

[Hondo.3]

A steel is like a chorus, a harmonious balance between many elements. To change one element is to change the balance, and the applications for which the material is suitable. When metallurgists develop a steel, they tailor its properties to its expected applications. They need to compromise between the following characteristics:
Machinability
Price
Toughness
Hardness
Flexibility
Stain resistance
Ease of sharpening

The tag "one-size" is a hallmark of a poor garment. However, the tag that bears your name, and no numbers, signals that the garment was tailored specifically for you. You can choose for yourself what you would like.

From another perspective, most people would agree that we have found the ultimate material for tools. It's called steel. Then again, someone will always mention the superior sharpness of flint and obsidian. So, even that is in dispute.

Perhaps your query is like asking why the world has not yet embraced a single religion, or a universal single garment. Simply, one size does not fit all.

TC

 

[dawsonbob]

There already is a "Steel Ceiling." We reach it every year or so. The ultimate steel is ..................... today. Tomorrow ... who knows?

Every year there's a new "ultimate steel," but at the rate things progress, we may not even be able to guess at the properties of the next super steel.

Will there ever be a steel that is so perfect that we quit trying to improve, and accept it as the ultimate? I doubt it.

 

[Planterz]

No matter how good alloys might get, "perfect" will always remain subjective to the user. You could get a steel that has nearly limitless edge retention, doesn't rust, and yet is easy to sharpen, but there will always be people who would prefer even better edge retention at the cost of corrosion resistance and/or sharpening ease. And vice versa.

 

[Apebrains]

The only time i think we'll get the perfect steel is when sharpening becomes unnecessary and we can smack them on metal and pry things apart without damage lol. But then there would be no fun in owning a knife.

You sir, are mad! And I like it!

I'd like to think that someday there will be just a single "knife steel" that didn't compromise edge holding, toughness, impact strength, etc. But that would be Utopia... or would it?

This is the sort of thing I'm trying to describe. The question I'm posing, is why can't we produce something of this caliber? Is there some theoretical reason why it would or would not be possible? Given the number of elements on the periodic table, I imagine it would take an obscene, possibly immeasurable amount of time to combine all of those that are possible with a steel in order to produce something relatively "perfect," and I realize that we try to do that every day as we produce new alloys, but will there ever be a "ceiling" to what we can do with steel?

A steel is like a chorus, a harmonious balance between many elements. To change one element is to change the balance, and the applications for which the material is suitable. When metallurgists develop a steel, they tailor its properties to its expected applications. They need to compromise between the following characteristics:
Machinability
Price
Toughness
Hardness
Flexibility
Stain resistance
Ease of sharpening

The tag "one-size" is a hallmark of a poor garment. However, the tag that bears your name, and no numbers, signals that the garment was tailored specifically for you. You can choose for yourself what you would like.

From another perspective, most people would agree that we have found the ultimate material for tools. It's called steel. Then again, someone will always mention the superior sharpness of flint and obsidian. So, even that is in dispute.

Perhaps your query is like asking why the world has not yet embraced a single religion, or a universal single garment. Simply, one size does not fit all.

TC

Having knapped obsidian myself, I can see from where this perspective is drawn, and I understand what you mean to say. In that case, are we simply like the Native Americans, and merely ignorant of some better material that we have yet to discover? Obviously, we've tried a number of alternatives in the present and past, such as Bronze, Titanium, Cooper Beryllium, etc., but none have thus far proven superior to steel for our purposes. Are we then waiting to discover something different? Could there be some element on a distant asteroid that is capable of producing a perfect metal or metal alloy for the manufacture of blades? If so, I fear a number of distant worlds are in danger of future parasitic infestation/colonization by humanity.....but I digress...

Surely I agree with your "one-size-fits-all" comment, but if a steel or other alloy existed that sacrificed nothing, then this argument would become moot, would it not? And lets not even get started on the religion thing, as it seems impossible for humans to remain mature in such conversations :jerkit:. I'm sure someone would end up suspended, lol.

There already is a "Steel Ceiling." We reach it every year or so. The ultimate steel is ..................... today. Tomorrow ... who knows?

Every year there's a new "ultimate steel," but at the rate things progress, we may not even be able to guess at the properties of the next super steel.

Will there ever be a steel that is so perfect that we quit trying to improve, and accept it as the ultimate? I doubt it.

But this is exactly the question posed. If the steel can be improved upon, there is not an extant ceiling. The characteristics I propose, would be those as cataloged by UpChuck. I.E. something that sacrifices significantly in no real department. And even if such a thing were not possible, then where is the end of possible development? When does an alloy come to a point where it cannot be improved upon? Even if we allowed for a high carbon and stainless category in the latter scenario, will ceiling be found for both?

No matter how good alloys might get, "perfect" will always remain subjective to the user. You could get a steel that has nearly limitless edge retention, doesn't rust, and yet is easy to sharpen, but there will always be people who would prefer even better edge retention at the cost of corrosion resistance and/or sharpening ease. And vice versa.

I understand of course what you mean, as it's similar to the "one size can't fit all" point made earlier. But can those compromises be more or less eliminated altogether?

 

[dawsonbob]

But this is exactly the question posed. If the steel can be improved upon, there is not an extant ceiling. The characteristics I propose, would be those as cataloged by UpChuck. I.E. something that sacrifices significantly in no real department. And even if such a thing were not possible, then where is the end of possible development? When does an alloy come to a point where it cannot be improved upon? Even if we allowed for a high carbon and stainless category in the latter scenario, will ceiling be found for both?

Ahh. But that's pretty much what I was saying in a rather tongue in cheek manner, sir: there can be no ceiling.

We can only dream of the "perfect" steel/alloy, but our minds are constrained by what is known to us now, and thoughts of steel development. Perhaps, sometime down the road of time, we'll view steel in the same way we view flint or obsidian today: good for its time, but laughable as a cutting edge.

Ceiling? Build a new story ... which, of course, will have a new ceiling, requiring yet another story, and on and on.

We're limited by what we know now, but what will be known in the future ... who knows?

 

[Apebrains]

Ahh. But that's pretty much what I was saying in a rather tongue in cheek manner, sir: there can be no ceiling.

We can only dream of the "perfect" steel/alloy, but our minds are constrained by what is known to us now, and thoughts of steel development. Perhaps, sometime down the road of time, we'll view steel in the same way we view flint or obsidian today: good for its time, but laughable as a cutting edge.

Ceiling? Build a new story ... which, of course, will have a new ceiling, requiring yet another story, and on and on.

We're limited by what we know now, but what will be known in the future ... who knows?

Shiny indeed, but not so dense, methinks...

I understand what you mean. And naturally, we're always ignorant. We're the furthest thing from gods, though it seems so many of us would like to think otherwise, and so we can't possibly know what steel mixture, or what element would be the supreme. Fun mental masturbation, I suppose :jerkit: .

I imagine my lack of experience in metallurgy and/or chemistry is limiting my understanding of steel amalgamations, but I would it seems like (correct me if I'm wrong) only in recent years that we've begun to use metals such as chromium and vanadium in our steels, but are there other untried elements that could yet still improve upon our current alloys?

I guess the point upon which we'll be looking back at steel in such a way is when lightsabers become a reality. I would imagine an energy weapon of said sort would be superior in virtually every way, so long as it would be waterproof. Things like the "Wicked Lasers Arctic S3 Spider" I feel are the beginning of our leaning in the direction of energy-based cutting tools, but do you think they'll ever be capable of replacing the knife, or the steel from which it's built?

 

[dawsonbob]

Shiny indeed, but not so dense, methinks...

I understand what you mean. And naturally, we're always ignorant. We're the furthest thing from gods, though it seems so many of us would like to think otherwise, and so we can't possibly know what steel mixture, or what element would be the supreme. Fun mental masturbation, I suppose :jerkit: .

I imagine my lack of experience in metallurgy and/or chemistry is limiting my understanding of steel amalgamations, but I would it seems like (correct me if I'm wrong) only in recent years that we've begun to use metals such as chromium and vanadium in our steels, but are there other untried elements that could yet still improve upon our current alloys?

I guess the point upon which we'll be looking back at steel in such a way is when lightsabers become a reality. I would imagine an energy weapon of said sort would be superior in virtually every way, so long as it would be waterproof. Things like the "Wicked Lasers Arctic S3 Spider" I feel are the beginning of our leaning in the direction of energy-based cutting tools, but do you think they'll ever be capable of replacing the knife, or the steel from which it's built?

I think the dense part depends upon whether I've had my coffee yet.

Of course we're ignorant, but that doesn't mean we're stupid. Throughout history new things, and new methods, have been developed that have advanced our understanding (probably causing someone to smack their forehead and say "now why didn't I think of that?"). There's always the story of the functionary at the patent office who supposedly said something to the effect of "we might as well close up shop; everything that can be invented, has been invented." LOL. Well, it hasn't yet, and I doubt that it ever will be.

The thing is that — as you pointed out — we're not Gods, though we are arrogant enough to think we are sometimes. I think early man may have thought the same thing, once upon a time, yet look at how far we've come since then. Our problem is that we simply don't know how much we don't know.

There may come a time when those incredible light sabers become a reality, and a time after that when they're considered archaic. Who knows? I certainly don't.

Will they ever replace steel for cutting implements? Probably, but certainly not in my lifetime ... and I'm thankful for that: steel's still too much fun to play with. In the future, perhaps you'll simply aim the cutting ray embedded in you finger tip at whatever you need to cut and think "cut" and the deed will be done. For me though, I like steel.

 

[ginaz]

something like this:

http://marvel.wikia.com/Adamantium

 

[dawsonbob]

something like this:

http://marvel.wikia.com/Adamantium

LOL. Maybe something like that . . . but better.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi ApeBrains,

"it's complicated".

Crucible made a steel (CPM-S150V). It took all day to cut it into a mule. Took another day to grind it. It stayed sharp beyond the charts, but.......When we ordered some, Cruicble couldn't roll it. "Too tough".

We found steels that could be rolled, but not ground...grinding wheel wear exceeded steel removal.

There have been great advancements in steel in the past 60 years; powdered metals, Nitrogen steels, better refining, physical disruption of structure ( Diamond blade), etc.

Then difficulty's arise in forming the steel into a tool. The next plateau?

sal

 

[Apebrains]

I think the dense part depends upon whether I've had my coffee yet.

Of course we're ignorant, but that doesn't mean we're stupid. Throughout history new things, and new methods, have been developed that have advanced our understanding (probably causing someone to smack their forehead and say "now why didn't I think of that?"). There's always the story of the functionary at the patent office who supposedly said something to the effect of "we might as well close up shop; everything that can be invented, has been invented." LOL. Well, it hasn't yet, and I doubt that it ever will be.

The thing is that — as you pointed out — we're not Gods, though we are arrogant enough to think we are sometimes. I think early man may have thought the same thing, once upon a time, yet look at how far we've come since then. Our problem is that we simply don't know how much we don't know.

There may come a time when those incredible light sabers become a reality, and a time after that when they're considered archaic. Who knows? I certainly don't.

Will they ever replace steel for cutting implements? Probably, but certainly not in my lifetime ... and I'm thankful for that: steel's still too much fun to play with. In the future, perhaps you'll simply aim the cutting ray embedded in you finger tip at whatever you need to cut and think "cut" and the deed will be done. For me though, I like steel.

Never said we were stupid, though of course, I think that comes down to the individual, and we as a mass...well, the jury's still out on that one. I do of course agree that I love steel in the meantime. Don't know, something more organic about it than an energy tool... I like that finger thing though...you better get on the patent for that one...

something like this:

http://marvel.wikia.com/Adamantium

Dude, I've been wishing for that stuff since I knew the idea had been dreamed up, and probably unconsciously even before then. SO cool....

Hi ApeBrains,

"it's complicated".

Crucible made a steel (CPM-S150V). It took all day to cut it into a mule. Took another day to grind it. It stayed sharp beyond the charts, but.......When we ordered some, Cruicble couldn't roll it. "Too tough".

We found steels that could be rolled, but not ground...grinding wheel wear exceeded steel removal.

There have been great advancements in steel in the past 60 years; powdered metals, Nitrogen steels, better refining, physical disruption of structure ( Diamond blade), etc.

Then difficulty's arise in forming the steel into a tool. The next plateau?

sal

An honor to have your response sir. My impression on S150V is that it'd take you a day on the diamond stones just to sharpen it? So if they couldn't roll it, did they just transport it in a smaller stock? But see things like that excite me. Knowing that there are things like that makes me want to experience those qualities and know how much further we can take them.

I could see that plateau, sure, but with the raw material, won't soon the machines that work it evolve as well? Perhaps we've spent too much time on advancing the steel and not a proportionately sufficient time developing machines or techniques that are more capable at working with it?

 

[Gator97]

What exactly is CPM s150v? Does anyone have its composition?
I am guessing it had15% Vanadium, but anything else?

 

[Thrustus]

It's already been done "Rosfrie Jamacian"