Steel choices for toughness?

bigin

bigin

Joined
Sep 3, 2014
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My passion has always been the outdoors so I primarily make hunting and camping knives. The favorite choice for camping and bush crafting seems to be high carbon steels like O1, A2, 52100 etc. For hunting knives on the other hand, people prefer stainless. I was experimenting with different stainless steels trying to find a steel that is great for both. My favorite is CPM 154. I am really loving this steel. It seems to be as tough as O1 with all the stainless properties of 440C.

So my question is why don't people like the tough new stainless steels for Bushcraft/camping? They just don't seem to draw much interest, or sell well, in those circles and I don't understand why.
 
I would say that some reasons might be tradition, concerns about ease of sharpening "super stainless" in the field and in the hardcore bushcraft community, concern about not be able to spark with flint. Blame that Canterbury guy. :D
 
I have a folder with a PD#1 blade and a fixed blade in 3V and they are both pretty tough. Stonewashed finishes seem to be good on them.
 
I'd have to go with the sparking deal too. Hear that often.
 
I don't know exactly why, but the profound bias against higher-alloy steels seems to be mostly an American/British thing. Other Europeans use stainless steels in the woods quite happily. If one is really concerned about making sparks with the back of their knife and being able to sharpen it easily... just buy a combo diamond stone and a handful of ferro-rods... and Bic lighters. ;)

CPM-154 is very good steel for almost any purpose from camp to kitchen. You might like AEB-L/13C26 too... not quite as good at pure edge-holding, but a little easier to sharpen... it's also inexpensive compared to the "powder" steels. I like to call it "the stainless steel for people who don't like stainless steel".

CPM-3V is another outstanding, well-balanced steel that's fairly stain-resistant but not "stainless" (it performs a lot like D2, but much tougher and finer-grained). If I could only use one steel for every type of knife, it would be 3V.
 
Well I guess it must be about striking a spark. Being an outdoorsman I think I would prefer the low maintenance of a stainless with superior edge retention. There are many ways to include fire starting in your kit without sacrificing usefulness of your primary tool. To each his own.
 
bigin said:
Being an outdoorsman I think I would prefer the low maintenance of a stainless with superior edge retention. There are many ways to include fire starting in your kit without sacrificing usefulness of your primary tool. To each his own.
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I agree on all points. Simple low-alloy steels aren't going away by any means, but I suspect the biases people have will start to even out more as time goes on.

There's also the fact that carbon steels just seem more romantic, a link to a simpler age, and they develop good-looking patinas with use. Lots of folks enjoy that kind of "character". Stainless and tool steels are admittedly pretty boring in that regard.
 
Pretty much any decent steel, stainless or not, will "strike a spark" using a ferro rod. it is the rod, not the blade steel that creates the hot stuff. The kind of sparking that the bushcraft folks are talking about is sparking with a piece of flint.
 
bigin said:
So my question is why don't people like the tough new stainless steels for Bushcraft/camping? They just don't seem to draw much interest, or sell well, in those circles and I don't understand why.
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There is the romance, the spark-fantasy, but most important is what you'd expect - $$$. When folk wanted a stainless alternative to 1095, etc. they were offered 440A & B and also 420HC and "INOX", and you'll notice that these steels or others in their class (asian imports) dominate the market, not the simple spring & tool-steels. Why? Because they're cheap and effective for most of what is required by the users, and being cheap they allow the producers to spend more time/money on varying blade/handle/sheath designs or on simple marketing strategies. What advantage does CPM154 give over 420HC for a woodcraft blade? Is it worth a price increase to the user?
 
I took my first back pack trip when I was 10 yrs. old (I'm now 68) in Glacier Park, MT. I've since packed all over the world. I have never needed to start a fire with a flint/ferro rod so I strongly question the need to do so. If it's raining I would hate to bet my survival on crouching over a pile of wet duff trying to strike a spark. It didn't work during my Boy Scout days, either. I'll take wax dipped matches or a Bic lighter any time.

Tim
 
tim37a said:
I took my first back pack trip when I was 10 yrs. old (I'm now 68) in Glacier Park, MT. I've since packed all over the world. I have never needed to start a fire with a flint/ferro rod so I strongly question the need to do so. If it's raining I would hate to bet my survival on crouching over a pile of wet duff trying to strike a spark. It didn't work during my Boy Scout days, either. I'll take wax dipped matches or a Bic lighter any time.

Tim
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Tim, some of the hardcore bushcraft guys will carry a fire starting kit that contains every fire starting method known to modern and primitive man short of actually trying to carry an actual captured bolt of lightning in a big Leiden jar. ;) Aside from the question of what happens if you lose this kit, it does make you wonder. ;)
 
jdm61 said:
Tim, some of the hardcore bushcraft guys will carry a fire starting kit that contains every fire starting method known to modern and primitive man short of actually trying to carry an actual captured bolt of lightning in a big Leiden jar. ;)
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And yet, BIC lighters are almost universally reviled among that crowd as being a cop-out or just plain uncool. Me, I'm of the mindset that I just don't care what time period it comes from, or who sells a lot of books/DVDs extolling its virtues. If it works I'll use it... I don't give a damn who thinks I'm cool or manly or bushcrafty enough :D

And yes, I've started fires with flint/steel, ferro rods, magnesium scrapings, etc... as someone said earlier, it's not as fun as it looks on TV. Besides, everyone knows the really manly men don't need any of that new-fangled nonsense... just a couple sticks and some hand-woven cordage made onsite. :p
 
JDM - Those guys must be a hell of a lot bigger and stronger than me.

James - You got it.

Tim
 
tim37a said:
JDM - Those guys must be a hell of a lot bigger and stronger than me.

James - You got it.

Tim
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Actually, they manage to fit most of the stuff in an Altoid tin or two. Char cloth, Vaseline, matches, striker, ferro rod on the sheath, little bottle of denatured alcohol fuel for the tin can stove bow drill divot in the knife handle, small magnifying glass, nesbit/hexamine fuel tabs etc, etc............oh, and the Bic lighter when nobody is looking. :D I was told years ago by a guy who had been stationed in Alaska in the army that the problem with propane lighters is that they only work down to a certain temperature. They always carried lifeboat matches in the field.
 
When hunting I always carry lifeboat matches [ make sure they are in working order] and a 4" length of candle .Strike a match , light the candle .
 
You guys are too modern for my tastes... i'm still traveling with my worshipped pot of embers, which i fiercely defend against other tribes. ;)
 
bigin you just need to educate your customers about stainless steels for bushcraft use. I have and they listen. CPM 154 and CPM S35VN are two that I use and have been accepted for bushcraft use. They both will handle hard use in the field. Any steel with a sharp spine will spark a ferro rod but carbon is best for flint. Most serious bushcrafters carry a striker in their kits for flint.
Scott
 
I teach a couple of classes on fire making at a wilderness camp during the summer. We teach with ferro rods primarily because it helps reinforce the basics of how fires actually work. We also let them experiment with other methods. At the end of the class I always hold up a bic lighter and ask them if they have new appreciation for it. We teach them to have at least two methods for starting fires on them when out in the woods and my recommendation is always a bic be one of them.

I personally have a ferro rod on my knife sheath and always have at least one bic lighter in my pack and usually some storm matches in a sealed case. Everything else for me is for further learning and enjoyment. A bic is to cheap, to easy and to reliable to not have. With that said I've had a couple of instances where it was to cold and I was at to high of an elevation for my bic to light with enough flame to really work well.

editted to add for the OP- my knives are cpm-3v and at this point are my favorite steel for an outdoors knife. Amazingly tough, hold and edge for a long time and even at higher hardness they sharpen fairly easily with a diamond stone which I keep in my pack (DMT Diafolds are fantastic). Anything sharp and decently hard will throw sparks off a ferro rod. Since chert and flint aren't native here I don't stress about not being able to spark off my knife with them.
 
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tim37a said:
What are lifeboat matches?
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They're cool, they have a coating on them that protects from moisture and makes them burn longer, even in pretty dang breezy/wet conditions. Just do a google search and you'll find several places to buy 'em.

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