Steel combination suggestions for damascus...

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I've only been using 1084/15N20 for my damascus. I've also got 1080, L6, W2 and just a wee little bit (ok, maybe a mountain of) 52100. I've used the 1084/15N20 because I learned with that combination and know that it will make a quality damascus.

Do any of you have suggestions on combinations that I can experiment with from the list above? I was thinking of adding some L6 to my 1084/15N20, but I'm not sure whether those three make a good combination. I was also thinking about W2 and 52100 together. I'm looking for combinations that have the following characteristics:
  • Ease of welding...
  • Nice finished appearance, such as color and contrast...
  • Good hardness and toughness qualities...
  • Easy to heat treat...
  • Easy to anneal...

Thanks, in advance!

Scott (Ickie) Ickes
 
I think the L6 is too close to 15N20 to make any difference. What works well with L6 is O1 .The two have very smilar HT ,will give nice contrast and a very tough blade.
 
O1 & L6 is indeed a great combo. The O1 will etch a very dark black due to the high Mn content. From what I've been told, the Mn content has a lot to do with how dark a simple carbon steel will etch. I'd guess that due to carbon migration, you'll end up with decent steel in just about any combination (though I'm not sure if the Cr in the 52100 would block the migration of carbon or not). If you're interested in the contrast of the different steels you have, etch a small piece of each and see what they look like.

Also, if you want to keep the really dark color from etching, on your final etch, flood the piece with acetone as soon as it comes out of the FeCl the last time before you neutralize. Then, take a piece of 1500-2000 grit paper with a stiff backing and lightly sand the highs (which should be your 15n20/L6) and you'll get a nice polish on the silver stuff while still keeping the dark blacks.

-d
 
Scott, I would go with mete on this. I would see no advantage to adding L6 to your mix. I have always had better results by matching water hardening with water hardening and oil hardening with oil hardening, and thus prefer to do it that way. I have always considered 15n20 and 1084/1095 the shallow hardening version of L6 and O1, not better or worse just different quench speeds. Adding a deep hardening steel to the mix will only put you in a situation where you will have to choose between the lesser of two evils in the heat treat.

However don’t fall into the awful trap that SO many fall into when they work under the misconception that 15n20 is just L6 under a different name- they are two entirely different steels. L6 is very rich in chromium and other alloying while 15n20 is pretty much 1075 with nickel added.

There are actually some guidelines I have developed that can help me determine what goes into Damascus and I can share them but Mr. Purple (Matt) should be aware that is one more item that could be developed into a chapter for my book that I am giving away for free;).

First, since aesthetics are subjective and performance should be universal in a tool, my first consideration always goes to how my selection effects the performance. And since performance is predominantly determined by heat treating I focus heavily there.

Drop a material into my hands and ask if I would put it into my mix, the first thing I will ask myself is “will this make a good knife all by itself?” If the answer is no I will toss it aside for fittings materials, since I don’t care to water down my good steel with it. The next question I will ask is “what are the heat treating requirements of each of my steels?”

The obvious part is the quench speed according to the curves, but there are also other points that can have profound effects. Contrary to popular opinion there is no one universal austenitizing temperature, due to carbide levels each steel has it’s own preferred range to which it will need to be heated for proper hardening. Let’s look at a mix of 1095 and 5160. They sound like a good idea but 5160 needs a range around 1525F while 1095 is best served below 1500F. This leaves no window where both steels can be austenitized optimally. Add to this the fact that one is extremely shallow hardening and the other is deeper hardening and you will then encounter differential rates of hardening that can result in distortion or even delamination. Oh you could eliminate a bit of the problem by just quenching as fast as possible but shocking the 5160 to that level could result in worse issues, such as microfracturing and other nasties. AN example of a window is for my O1/L6 steel, the O1 range tops out at 1500F while the L6 starts at 1500F. so I have my perfect temp for that mix already determined for me, it is a narrow window, but it works;).

The next thing I look at is weldability. Some alloys are just ornery to stick and should be left for simple projects or somebody who is a real wizard at forging welding. I use O1 and L6 for almost any simple using blade I make but if I need to do some wild twisting and multi barring with stressful forging I will opt for something like 1075 and the Admiral L6 alternative (8670M) because the stuff sticks together like it is made of glue and I will lessen the chances of wasting a week developing a piece only to throw it away when I find a flaw in polishing (one can’t make a living that way). The richer the alloy, the more finicky it becomes in welding, I have come to blame chromium for many of my welding woes, it seems anything with higher chromium levels needs to be watched more closely in the welding. Some blame nickel and its oxides but this only seems to be an issue at very high temperatures.

The next issue in weldability is ductility rates and expansion. It is a smaller concern but can effect the rate at which you draw things out at different temperatures. Mix say 52100 (stiff as a rock under the hammer) with 1084 and the one set of layers could move at such a different rate from the other that there is added stress on the welds in working. This will abate a bit with further working as the carbon diffuses more and evens out in the layers. Which brings me to another point… Carbon “migration” is our friend! I often see it used like it is a term that describes a disease to be avoided in our Damascus, when it actually allows for strengthening of low carbon layers and making for more even treatments later. If you need to keep carbon in certain layers because your blade will be too soft it moves, keep the stuff that wouldn’t have made a good blade out of the mix to begin with. I have found layers of varying abrasion resistance to be much more effective than layers of differing hardness (and thus strength).

Contrast and final appearance, while it is last, is still very important for the marketability of the knife. I personally could just never put pretty over performance. Steels the have nickel contents will display the brightest whites and silvers in the etch, the higher nickel content the brighter the color. Chromium will produce lighter grays but not the same bright silvers and whites. Simpler steels without this alloying will produce darker contrasts. Carbon content can have very subtle effects on the darkness but this is mostly due, in the long run, to its effects on heat treatment. The element you want to look at for darkness is manganese, the more Mn, the closer to black you can get those contrasting layers with etching alone.

One final note on color, heat treating will have profound effects on the etch and colors. Annealed steel is about as interesting as watching paint dry in its contrast from an etch. Fully hardened steel with no temper is not much different. But as you increase amounts of tempering on hardened steel the richer those darker layers will get. After all my experience with metallography I now believe a lot of this is due to tempering carbides. All other form of carbide can be easily recognized under the scope due to its white appearance. But very fine tempering carbides are dark and appear as tiny black dots in the matrix, which leads me to believe that more of them you precipitate, the darker the overall steel will etch macroscopically. Eventually if you heat high enough the carbides will just grow into spheroidal cementite and things will wash out again though.
 
My comment about L6 being too close to 15N20 to make a difference was in regard to etching color .I should have stated that.
 
Scott, I would go with mete on this. I would see no advantage to adding L6 to your mix. I have always had better results by matching water hardening with water hardening and oil hardening with oil hardening, and thus prefer to do it that way. I have always considered 15n20 and 1084/1095 the shallow hardening version of L6 and O1, not better or worse just different quench speeds. Adding a deep hardening steel to the mix will only put you in a situation where you will have to choose between the lesser of two evils in the heat treat.

However don’t fall into the awful trap that SO many fall into when they work under the misconception that 15n20 is just L6 under a different name- they are two entirely different steels. L6 is very rich in chromium and other alloying while 15n20 is pretty much 1075 with nickel added.

There are actually some guidelines I have developed that can help me determine what goes into Damascus and I can share them but Mr. Purple (Matt) should be aware that is one more item that could be developed into a chapter for my book that I am giving away for free;).

First, since aesthetics are subjective and performance should be universal in a tool, my first consideration always goes to how my selection effects the performance. And since performance is predominantly determined by heat treating I focus heavily there.

Drop a material into my hands and ask if I would put it into my mix, the first thing I will ask myself is “will this make a good knife all by itself?” If the answer is no I will toss it aside for fittings materials, since I don’t care to water down my good steel with it. The next question I will ask is “what are the heat treating requirements of each of my steels?”

The obvious part is the quench speed according to the curves, but there are also other points that can have profound effects. Contrary to popular opinion there is no one universal austenitizing temperature, due to carbide levels each steel has it’s own preferred range to which it will need to be heated for proper hardening. Let’s look at a mix of 1095 and 5160. They sound like a good idea but 5160 needs a range around 1525F while 1095 is best served below 1500F. This leaves no window where both steels can be austenitized optimally. Add to this the fact that one is extremely shallow hardening and the other is deeper hardening and you will then encounter differential rates of hardening that can result in distortion or even delamination. Oh you could eliminate a bit of the problem by just quenching as fast as possible but shocking the 5160 to that level could result in worse issues, such as microfracturing and other nasties. AN example of a window is for my O1/L6 steel, the O1 range tops out at 1500F while the L6 starts at 1500F. so I have my perfect temp for that mix already determined for me, it is a narrow window, but it works;).

The next thing I look at is weldability. Some alloys are just ornery to stick and should be left for simple projects or somebody who is a real wizard at forging welding. I use O1 and L6 for almost any simple using blade I make but if I need to do some wild twisting and multi barring with stressful forging I will opt for something like 1075 and the Admiral L6 alternative (8670M) because the stuff sticks together like it is made of glue and I will lessen the chances of wasting a week developing a piece only to throw it away when I find a flaw in polishing (one can’t make a living that way). The richer the alloy, the more finicky it becomes in welding, I have come to blame chromium for many of my welding woes, it seems anything with higher chromium levels needs to be watched more closely in the welding. Some blame nickel and its oxides but this only seems to be an issue at very high temperatures.

The next issue in weldability is ductility rates and expansion. It is a smaller concern but can effect the rate at which you draw things out at different temperatures. Mix say 52100 (stiff as a rock under the hammer) with 1084 and the one set of layers could move at such a different rate from the other that there is added stress on the welds in working. This will abate a bit with further working as the carbon diffuses more and evens out in the layers. Which brings me to another point… Carbon “migration” is our friend! I often see it used like it is a term that describes a disease to be avoided in our Damascus, when it actually allows for strengthening of low carbon layers and making for more even treatments later. If you need to keep carbon in certain layers because your blade will be too soft it moves, keep the stuff that wouldn’t have made a good blade out of the mix to begin with. I have found layers of varying abrasion resistance to be much more effective than layers of differing hardness (and thus strength).

Contrast and final appearance, while it is last, is still very important for the marketability of the knife. I personally could just never put pretty over performance. Steels the have nickel contents will display the brightest whites and silvers in the etch, the higher nickel content the brighter the color. Chromium will produce lighter grays but not the same bright silvers and whites. Simpler steels without this alloying will produce darker contrasts. Carbon content can have very subtle effects on the darkness but this is mostly due, in the long run, to its effects on heat treatment. The element you want to look at for darkness is manganese, the more Mn, the closer to black you can get those contrasting layers with etching alone.

One final note on color, heat treating will have profound effects on the etch and colors. Annealed steel is about as interesting as watching paint dry in its contrast from an etch. Fully hardened steel with no temper is not much different. But as you increase amounts of tempering on hardened steel the richer those darker layers will get. After all my experience with metallography I now believe a lot of this is due to tempering carbides. All other form of carbide can be easily recognized under the scope due to its white appearance. But very fine tempering carbides are dark and appear as tiny black dots in the matrix, which leads me to believe that more of them you precipitate, the darker the overall steel will etch macroscopically. Eventually if you heat high enough the carbides will just grow into spheroidal cementite and things will wash out again though.

Holy Crap Kevin! You rock. I'm going to be spending a lot of time figuring out everything your saying, but it will be time well spent. I bought a nice notebook the other day to begin writing down things that I want in my shop at a fingertips notice. I will be organizing what you've said here in a way that my brain can get wrapped around it, and then put it in my notebook. I wasn't expecting this much input. Thank you.
 
Good inof as usual, Mr. Cashen:thumbup: I am hopefully going to give damscus a try here in the near future. How compatilble are W2 and 1018? I like the "old school" look with no shiny, shiny nickel, but i would prefer to use the W2 over my 1075/80 just to keep the carbon content up in the final product. I wouldbe using at least a 2 to 1 ratio of either W2 or !075. (1/8 inch 1018 and 1/4-3/8 1075 or W2)
 
Joe, why the 1018? The old school look is fine but many old school ideas about layering where developed before us bladesmiths had a good grip on carbon diffusion concepts. However if you do enough welding, a billet of 2:1 W2 and 1018 will be around .71% carbon throughout anyhow so it should be good. The initial welds will be a bit sluggish since lower carbon equals higher welding temperature. If you want a hypereutectoid with the same contrast, or lack thereof, using 1075 or 1080 with the W2 in that ratio will give around .92% C throughout. Of course all of these numbers assume all other conditions are perfect and does not account for any decarb in the welding process.

By the way W2 is really good for Damascus because of the vanadium, it allows higher heats while still keeping things in place inside. You need to go to almost 2000F to totally lose those vanadium carbides, so getting grain size back down after the weld will be a snap.
 
Joe, why the 1018? The old school look is fine but many old school ideas about layering where developed before us bladesmiths had a good grip on carbon diffusion concepts. However if you do enough welding, a billet of 2:1 W2 and 1018 will be around .71% carbon throughout anyhow so it should be good. The initial welds will be a bit sluggish since lower carbon equals higher welding temperature. If you want a hypereutectoid with the same contrast, or lack thereof, using 1075 or 1080 with the W2 in that ratio will give around .92% C throughout. Of course all of these numbers assume all other conditions are perfect and does not account for any decarb in the welding process.

By the way W2 is really good for Damascus because of the vanadium, it allows higher heats while still keeping things in place inside. You need to go to almost 2000F to totally lose those vanadium carbides, so getting grain size back down after the weld will be a snap.
Hmmmmm.........If you started at .92% then a little decarb would not spoil th party so much. Good point on the higher welding temp for the 1018. I notice you said 2000 degrees for the W2. I know that you tend to weld at a lower temp than the nornal 2200-2300 that I hear bandied about, but exactly HOW low do you go? The reason I mentioned the 1018 is that Don Hanson did some very high layer count random blades with an 80-20 mix of W2 and wrought iron and I absolutely love how it turned out. I suspect that the 1075 would give me a similar look to the 1018 which might be slightly darker because of the manganese. The W2 I have has very low managnese so, in theory, it should be the lighter layers in the billet. But you know how theory works

:D
 
I'm by no means an expert on Damascus, but I have learned a few things NOT to do.
For one, I no longer use 1095 or W2 or W1 mixed with Admirals 8670, because there is just not much contrast. I haven't tried 1084 mixed with 8670, but I would think that would work out great. And I have lot's of both, so as soon as I finish the billets I have started, I'll give it a try.
The one billet I made with O1 and L6 had wonderful contrast, and welded well, but I hate having to forge the L6 and O1 from round stock to flat, then anneal it, then grind it.
Until I find a source for flat L6, I've decided to start using Aldo Bruno's 1084, mixed with 15n20. They both come in 1-1/2" wide, which is what I prefer my billets to be, and there's just hardly any prep work that needs to be done to them.

FWIW,
 
Wow Kevin! Thanks for the dissertation. It gives me some extra stuff to think about...I'm curious as well about your welding temps. I tend to work in the "standard" 2200-2300 range, but I know that higher carbon steels SHOULD need much lower temps. I just haven't had the time yet to play with it and see how low I can go. What would you recommend as a range to start playing with?

Thanks again for all the info,

-d
 
I do tend to weld at lower temperatures but the times I have measured a typical weld heat, mine have averaged around 2200F. My thinking is that really high heats are rarely beneficial to steel and lower temps will keep more carbon in my blade as well as making normalizing less work later. Many tenacious oxides become more of a problem at very high tempertures.

That being said one can correct most problems (except the carbon loss) afterwards with good normalizing. I just avoid the screaming white heats, because sparking (burning) any steel is never good, but many of the alloys I work with, like O1, simply will not forgive you if you get it too hot. Simpler alloys can handle the high heat better than the deeper hardening ones.
 
I do tend to weld at lower temperatures but the times I have measured a typical weld heat, mine have averaged around 2200F. My thinking is that really high heats are rarely beneficial to steel and lower temps will keep more carbon in my blade as well as making normalizing less work later. Many tenacious oxides become more of a problem at very high tempertures.

That being said one can correct most problems (except the carbon loss) afterwards with good normalizing. I just avoid the screaming white heats, because sparking (burning) any steel is never good, but many of the alloys I work with, like O1, simply will not forgive you if you get it too hot. Simpler alloys can handle the high heat better than the deeper hardening ones.

Ok, that makes me feel a bit better. I just wasn't sure how I could weld at much less than 2200. I thought I was missing something. :)

Thanks again Kevin!

-d
 
W2 / 15N20 is a very good mix, not super high contrast but a hell of a cutter. My main mix is 1084/15N20 and I usually add a piece of W2 to every billet for another color and added carbon.

Joe, the W2 / 15N20 will come close to that old school look but will out cut it by a bunch.

Like kevin, I also feel welding at lower temp is better. My forge will not get over 2200f. I've been around a few forges that were pushing 2500f, too hot for me.
 
Punkmnkey.
Please look at the threads you pull up in a search. This one is almost ten years old.

Many of your questions can be found in the stickys, and using the BF search engine (in the stickys) will help with detailed thread searches.

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