Steel Comparison for hard-use knife?

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Newbie question for the experts. Sometime in the future, I'd want a knife to be made with a blade that's 6" - 7" long and 1/8" thick and Rc 58. If choosing between L6, A2, S7 steels, can someone tell me how they would compare? Specifically what would be the best compromise in terms of impact resistance, edge holding and stain resistance? :confused:

Thanks is advance!
 
Newbie question for the experts.

I am no expert, but I will be happy to give you my lay opinion, for whatever it is worth. You will probably get what you paid for at least  

I'd want a knife to be made with a blade that's 6" - 7" long and 1/8" thick and Rc 58.

Is there a reason you specify the hardness you desire before you know which steel you want? 58RC may not be the optimal hardness for each of the steels for the properites you want.

Newbie question for the experts. Sometime in the future, I'd want a knife to be made with a blade that's 6" - 7" long and 1/8" thick and Rc 58. If choosing between L6, A2, S7 steels, can someone tell me how they would compare? Specifically what would be the best compromise in terms of impact resistance, edge holding and stain resistance?

Which is the best comprimise really depends on how you wieght each of the variables. None are really corrosion resistant for example, L6 will oxoidize while you watch it when used in the kitchen..

Here is how I would rate them assuming an optimal heat trteat for each:

Impact resistance: S7, L6, A2. Yeah,S7 is a bad boy in this field, you can’t mess with Shock steels when it comes to impact resistance, it is some tough stuff. Maybe over tough for a 6” blade, 1/8” thick, you probably are not gonna see the kind of impact stress S7 is designed to withstand, and as a consequence gives up other attributes like wear resistance.

Thom Brogan has a sweet comparison in the works, S7 RD9 and Banite 5160 in an identical blade, talk about seeing supreme blade toughness.

Edge Holding Depends, is your dulling mechanism deformation and abbrasion or microchipping? If it is deformation (edge roll) or Abbrassion you want the hardest, strongest, most wear resistant steel of the group steel. So, the order there would be A2, L6, S7.

However, if you are dulling by microchipping, then the order is the same as toughness, S7, L6, A2.

Corrosion Resistance: A2 is probably strongly ahead of the other two. Noe are really ideal here.

For a knife that size what would I choose? Probably L6, but I have no need for corrosion resistance.

What steel may be best for you? I would suggest you look at A8, thougher than A2, better wear resistance than S7, and probably more corrosion resistant than any of them absed on reviews I have read.

Hope that helps,
KT
 
Wow! Mighty grateful for the input KT! The knife I've had in mind is going to do camp/outdoors chores, which is basically food prep and woodcrafting. It seems its a toss-up with A2 and L6, though honestly, I'm leaning now towards A2 based on your info. Maybe this is why Chris Reeve and Mike Stewart (Bark River) use it.

With regards to A8, hmmmm, I rarely hear about it, but these TOUGH knives are made from it -

http://www.survivalknives.com/articles.htm

Impressive, no?
 
Ooops! Dang! I forgot about 3V?! Please indulge me again; A2, L6 and 3V with the same specs and Rc 58?
 
untamed said:
Wow! Mighty grateful for the input KT! The knife I've had in mind is going to do camp/outdoors chores, which is basically food prep and woodcrafting

I think 15n20, 51200, 1084 or 1095, ran fairly hard (60-63) with a thin profile would be very suitable for that. Heck, for $20 a Mora 2000 or AG Russel Deerhunter in D2 (under $100) would be fine and give you the corrosion resistasnce you are looking for. Food prep and general woodwork do not require great toughness.

It seems its a toss-up with A2 and L6, though honestly, I'm leaning now towards A2 based on your info. Maybe this is why Chris Reeve and Mike Stewart (Bark River) use it.

A2 would be my last choice. It is also fairly heat treat sensitive, much less forginving than L6 from what I have heard from knifemakers.

With regards to A8, hmmmm, I rarely hear about it, but these TOUGH knives are made from it -

http://www.survivalknives.com/articles.htm

Impressive, no?

Yep, that was the knife I was thinking of in fact when you said you wanted a really tough knife in that size.

However, based on your descrption of intended use, I think you are “buying” way too much toughness and “paying” too much in cutting efficiency to the extent that cutting efficiency is determined by steel choice, it is MUCH more heavily influenced by geometry.

For food prep and wood work hard, thin knives with very acute grinds work really well.
 
Re: Tac-11 and Steel Choice:

This is very informative:
One of the advantages of a steel that has an inherent high impact toughness is that you can run it very hard and it still will be able to resist fracture from hard contacts. The high hardness will give you greater strength and as well more compression resistance. This means that overall the knife will be far more durable than another knife made out of a steel that has to be made softer to get the necessary impact toughness.

Reference: http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/TAC_11.html

See also: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230259
 
Thanks for all the responses guys. I’m learning as I go with all the steel choices you’ve recommended.

Knifetester said:

"However, based on your descrption of intended use, I think you are “buying” way too much toughness and “paying” too much in cutting efficiency to the extent that cutting efficiency is determined by steel choice, it is MUCH more heavily influenced by geometry."

Very true indeed, but allow me to expound on my use further. You see where I am, a knife you have on you is more often than not relegated to a jack-of-all trades role, which may include fairly “hard” wood tasks of splitting, with batoning not out of the question and prying them apart for firewood. This would account for my apparent premium on overall toughness with the ancillary benefits of edge holding and rust/stain resistance. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, I’d really prefer the HT at that Rc because it won’t be a pain for re-sharpening with an ordinary flat kitchen stone but at the same time won’t be so soft that I’d have to do it frequently.

Your thoughts again?

Edit: Cliff, my PC froze and I just saw your post only now.
 
a knife you have on you is more often than not relegated to a jack-of-all trades role, which may include fairly “hard” wood tasks of splitting, with batoning not out of the question and prying them apart for firewood. This would account for my apparent premium on overall toughness with the ancillary benefits of edge holding and rust/stain resistance.

Yes, that is similiar to my own woodcraft use. Again, these are not uses that require extreme toughness such that shock level steels, or similiar are needed. Shock level steels are, in my opinion, best suited for heavy impact use, where there is a good probability of contacts with inclusions, rocks, hard knots, etc.

A 6" long balde that is 1/8" thick is usually not swung with enough force that shock steel is required to withstand the impact stress. I can understand the can't be tough enough standpoint, and I would usually agree. However here. since you are "paying" for that toughness with the wear resistance and corrosion resistance you are loking for, perhaps you should consider a stronger, less tough steel.

Again, I think A8 would still be a great choice, as would something like 52100 or L6 if you would be willing to disregard corrosion resistance. If you really want more toughness, then consider going to a spring steel like 5160. It is massively tough, but still more wear resisitant than shock steels.

Check out some of the ABS style knives, from makers like Ray Kirk, Brian Caffery and Nick Wheeler. You will be amazed at the level of durability these knives have, while at the same time they have incredibley high performance geometry.

Also, correct me if I’m wrong, I’d really prefer the HT at that Rc because it won’t be a pain for re-sharpening with an ordinary flat kitchen stone but at the same time won’t be so soft that I’d have to do it frequently.

The sheer amount of metal you have to remove with each sharpening is, to me, more important than the steel composition when determining ese of sharpening. I have knifes in very hard, very wear resisitant steels (like M2) that are typically thought to be hard to sharpen. Just the opposite is true however. Because the steel is strong and hard, it can be run at a much lower cross section, therefore their is only a small amount of metal that has to be removed, even for a full edge reset. Removing a little bit of ahrd, wear resistant metal is a lot easier for me than removing a largeer amount of softer steel. As well, when steel is run hard, it is more likely to forma crisp edge under sharpening, whereas a soft edge (58 would be about medium) is much more prone to burr formation, which really increases sharpening time,especially if you use V-rod devices to sharpen. See Cliff's *numerous* posts on the subject, as well as some very informatice posts by Jeff Clark and Joe Talmadge.

with an ordinary flat kitchen stone

If you are gonna spend the money on having a custom knife built, factor in the price of good sharpening equipment as well. However, it doe snot have to be expensive, I have sharpened knives to frightful levels using sandpaper and a drywall pad.

But again, I am by no means the "expert" opinion you seek. Just throwing my two cents worth and that is probably overpriced!
 
untamed said:
...may include fairly “hard” wood tasks of splitting, with batoning not out of the question and prying them apart for firewood.

Many knife tests are far overhyped in terms of the demands they place on a knife. I have seen people heap praise on a 1/4" thick sabre ground blade because it was able to baton through a piece of wood, this can be done with a small puukko. A knife is very strong in that axis through the width of the blade so there is little danger in bending it unless the blade is made from mild steel.

In terms of shock, hitting a piece of steel with a piece of wood doesn't impose a significant shock outside, unless the steel is full hard or an extreme high alloy 15V. I do it all the time with high alloy stainless like ATS-34 and steels like D2, the only danger is chisel cutting through knots, the edge might crack if it is overloaded.

The blade in the above is spring spined so it will ductile fail when pushed beyond its limit, so you just bend it back to fix it. A thin blade, 1/8" or 5/32" is easily bent by hand by any normal adult, so prying is restricted to bark removal and clear grained wood splitting like cedar and pine. The spring temper just gives you a little leeway in case you get a bit excited or sloppy.

I’d really prefer the HT at that Rc because it won’t be a pain for re-sharpening with an ordinary flat kitchen stone but at the same time won’t be so soft that I’d have to do it frequently.

This is a myth. I have a 1095 blade at full hardness, 66 HRC, which last night I sharpened to a hair popping edge on a natural stone from Malaysia which is so soft I can score a line in it with my fingernail. Not that I would recommend this hardness for what you noted, just refering to needing a low hardness for ease of sharpening. This is mainly controlled by the geometry of the blade and secondly the alloy content.

-Cliff
 
I have seen people heap praise on a 1/4" thick sabre ground blade because it was able to baton through a piece of wood, this can be done with a small puukko.
Yes, see various work done by Jim Aston batoning with a mora, which is a knife ~3/32” thick. For example: http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/baton.html

Note that from my perspective, actually cutting (bucking) the wood as Jim does in the link is far more stressful on a blade then splitting wood, except if you try to chisel through knots. Splitting firewood via baton on wood under 4-6” is not exceptionally stressful on a knife, I have done it a number of time with knives as thin as 3/32” and 1/16” without damage to the knives.
 
This thread is great ... sometimes I'm bummed when I don't discover the thread until the action is over :) Very nice illustration of the various important tradeoffs. In fact, anyone just getting started in understanding steels should save this one away.

untamed, were I in your shoes, I'd be really hesitant to give up the cutting performance for what I do 95% of the time, in the relatively rare case that I might have to do something harder. On the other hand, having a harder-use knife in the outback is a just plain good idea.

My solution would be to go with a tougher big knife, L6 being a great choice but there's plenty of room for variance. Then, I'd grab myself a VG-10 or D-2 AG Russell Deerhunter and carry that too. I know you didn't say you wanted two knives, but I preach with the zealousness of the converted in this case. Whenever I go camping, it's the smaller high-performance cutter that not only do I use almost 100% of the time, but it's what everyone else in camp borrows also (which is why I tend to go w/ stainless). The Deerhunter is feather-light and not too expensive. If you stick with one knife, I'd give up some of L6's toughness for it.
 
knifetester said:
Note that from my perspective, actually cutting (bucking) the wood as Jim does in the link is far more stressful on a blade then splitting wood, except if you try to chisel through knots. Splitting firewood via baton on wood under 4-6” is not exceptionally stressful on a knife, I have done it a number of time with knives as thin as 3/32” and 1/16” without damage to the knives.

This is a pretty interesting point, it can indeed be trivial to split some woods, Apps for exampe is so clear that you can actually drop an axe on it and it will split, it cleaves way easier than white pine which is saying something. The only thing I have seen fall apart easier is cedar shingles.

However you get a piece of spruce where the grain is twisted and it is going to take some work to cleave it. This is sort of semantics though as you are not really splitting anymore then by cross cutting right through the grain.

I had some bad ones last winter that were not overly large (10-12") but took a splitting maul and two wedges to crack. In general splitting is far easier but it can be much worse depending on the wood. Like most tasks it isn't that meaningful without more information, the type of wood, the condition, etc. .

Jim did a lot of work to destroy that myth about knife performance, I think he was one of the first if not the first guy to tackle that from a utility perspective rather than an extreme task used to promote heavy survivial knives.

Joe have you ever tried a decent large knife optomized purely for brush cutting, no tactical or heavy utility unfluence?

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:

"Jim did a lot of work to destroy that myth about knife performance, I think he was one of the first if not the first guy to tackle that from a utility perspective rather than an extreme task used to promote heavy survivial knives."

For my uses, especially in the rural villages or barrios, splitting and prying bamboo and acaccia are quite plentiful which are daily sources for cooking fuel over earthen fireplaces. It's not uncommon for large but thin-ground, carbon steel blades to be used by the the local folks. Yet, they are not so unwieldly that they can't be used in the kitchen.

Having said this, I would also agree on the principle of "the right tool for the right job".
 
As part of my "anniversary" here on BF, I'm bumping this again! :D :thumbup:

Seriously though, this is a very enlightening thread especially for the newbies about steel properties, use and performance. It started me on the road to great learning here on BF! My humble way of giving back.
 
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