steel comparisons?

DEA

DEA

Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
701
i'd have done a search, but, people like me are causing server problems ;)
i've been wondering, is there a real difference between the higher end steels like vg-10, 154cm, ATS-34 etc?
i'm not very familiar with all these terms yet (i'm new to the knife collecting business) and i'd like to be pointed somewhere where i can suss things out, if it's not too inconvenient

thanks in advance :)
 
There have been a lot of comparisons published on Bladeforums, but you need the search function (premium membership) to track them down. The most systematic comparisons have generally been done by Cliff Stamp (though some say he is an excessively hard tester). Here is a link to one of his many web pages. Look around his pages and you'll see a lot.

http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/knives/edge_testing_II.html
 
154CM and ATS34 are the same except, 154CM is made in the USA by Crucible and ATS34 is made in Japan by Hitachi. VG10 is a Japnese steel with edge holding similar to 154CM/ATS34, but with a bit more rust resistance and the ability to take a finer edge (because it has vanadium which promotes a fine grain structure).

Check out Joe Talmadge's article on Steel types here:


http://www.bladeforums.com/features/faqs.shtml


Spyderco has a very good steel chart here:


http://www.spyderco.com/education/s...0+PM&mscssid=D8J0FDWU5TJD9NJK1M9VAHH556559FP5


Here is a thread on VG-10, and how it compares to other steels including ATS34:


http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002371.html
 
I'm a collector as well as a maker. You're probably correct. There may be very little effective difference between the top steels. Personally, I am a forged carbon steel guy but I buy almost entirely folders when I collect and they are pretty much stainless.

I think there is a difference when it comes to how the heat treat is done. I've tested plain single quench, single temper ATS-34 or 154CM against the crygenic treated and multi-tempered ATS-34 and there IS definitely a difference. Edge holding, edge quality and probably the fineness of grain structure is affected. Powdered steel is probably less affected by just having one heat treat cycle.

440C has poor edge holding in my book, even with crygenic treatment. Adequate edge holding really starts with cryo-treated ATS-34 and RWL-34, the Swedish powdered version of ATS-34 which has very consistent fine grain structure. BG-42 done properly, is the next step up. VG-10 is then the ultimate non-powdered steel, apparently. However, once again it comes to the heat treat. I've handled a couple of Japanese-made chefs knives which were made of this VG-10 but they were tempered so soft (55-56HRC)that the edge holding was markedly affected. Whereas, the new Fallkniven VG-10 folder has amazing edge-holding at 58 or 59HRC.

As a cynic, I note that the newer more complex steels require equally more complex heat treating procedures. These add to the price. Is cost equal to quality, equal to exclusivity ?

The steel I'd watch is CPM S30V which everyone is raving about. From the elemental anaylsis, it actually looks a lot like a powdered version of D-2, which is definitely a good thing. Powdered steels like S60V (440V) and S90V (420V) are very hard, wear resisant steels but particularly hard to sharpen when they blunt. Some are also unfortunately very prone to breakage.

Sorry to confuse the issue, but there is a multitude of steels out there and I haven't even mentioned Talonite or Stellite Y6K which is not a steel actually. Exclusivity is in the eyes of the beholder and when purchasing a collector-grade knife you need to look beyond the steel type and consider the completeness and execution of the whole package.

Cheers.
 
i've commented on this like 50 times. but, here goes again. why is it that if you look at 100 custom knives 80 or more of them are going to have 154cm and not s30v? is it because these guys do not want to destroy their belts making them? that is the only reason i can think of. since s30v has 30% better edge holding and more corrosion resistance than 154cm. mr. reeve uses it in production folders. so why can't the custom makers use it? still, the reeve s30v isn't all that s30v can be, and not much better than 154cm the way he uses it. it is left too soft and the geometry is not complimentry to the steel.
well, i think the only way to notice the difference above and beyond 154cm is in larger blades. all the small belly sub 3" blades i collect, i doubt i'd notice the difference. i don't cut anything hard enough with those little guys that would require even the 154cm to be sharpened but once a year! envelopes and bagels mostly.


holdanedge.
 
mr. cutter, i noticed you mentioned sweedish steel. i am trying to gather as much information as i can on z60cdv14 everyone i asked said it was comparable to 440a or aus6. if that is so, it is unacceptable to me.
as for why everyone is using 154cm, to answer my own question. i think that s30v is not necesarily better than 154cm. i think a really good 154cm can outdo reeve s30v. no offense mr. reeve i still love your products. each succesion of supersteel does not mean it is automatically better. yes, s30v holds a better edge and has slightly more corrosion resistence. properly heat treated 154cm(cryo-quenched) has good enough corrosion resistence for most, is less prone to breakage. the trade off is always the better it holds an edge the harder it is to sharpen. this is probably why reeve does not use an agressive geometry as to destroy their belts. i honestly would not want a knife that was impossible to sharpen just because it held an edge longer. unless, of course it held an edge forever and never needed to be sharpened. that is doubtfull. so i think this is why most customs use 154cm unless someone ASKS for s30v. given the compromises of edge holding vs. sharpening ease 154cm is maybe the best all around. also, vg10 is less expensive than 154cm and the manufacturers that use vg10 end up using more expensive metals on their more expensive products. i find that strange. who cares if vg10 is less expensive, if it is better please use it!


thank you,
holdanedge.
 
holdanedge, glad to see you are as good as your word!!! Once again you have your head up your a ss, and have no idea what you are talking about. S30 is a better steel than 154cm all around. How do I know because I have knives in both, unlike you who just pretends to have them.
 
ATS-34 polishes real pretty. That is one of the reasons that custom makers like it. It has a common reputation as a premium alloy which makes it easier to sell. Nothing that you could do to it would make it comparable in performance to S30V.
 
congratulations, db. you have all the knives. i guess that is why there was none left for me. uh, you forgot one thing s30v is harder to sharpen, a lot harder. that is the tradeoff. if you think it is better great, so be it. besides, i stated that you did not scare me away quite some time ago. why don't you go join us in the "pit bull" post i'm sure you will have fun there! i don't really care if you are going to show up every time i post and have something nasty to say. in life, one is bound to have at least a few enemys no matter how much of a stand up guy they are. back to the topic, when you disagree with something why don't you make a point of WHY you disagree. instead of spewing trash forth from your mouth as would a 5th. grader. if you have dropped out of the 5th. grade, then please disregard that last statment. as, technically you would then still be the equivelant of a 5th. grader.



thank you,
holdanedge.
 
thats another thing, s30v does not take a polish like 154cm. it looks like sheet metal on my furnace. funny, such a good metal ends up looking so cheap. no doubt it is better (s30v). i am not a steel snob so i don't really care. once again, i doubt that i would notice the difference in my minature folders. true nothing you can do to 154cm would make it as good as s30v. but, lots of things you can do to s30v can make it as lousy as 154cm! if you consider 154cm to be lousy.



thank you,
holdanedge.
 
Once again holdanedge shows just how little he knows. S30 is not hard to sharpen. In fact I think it is easier to get a great edge on than ats or 154cm. Like I said before good to see you are as good as your word, holdanedge, welcome back. :) I for one never thought you would leave because that would mean you typed something that was true and in your case that is never going to hapen.
 
oops, sorry, i missed out on this thread since october

if i read it right, japansteel is saying ats-34 quality has been the most consistent, and 154cm/vg10 only recently had good QC?

and... doesn't crucible sell s30v in blocks? if i remember correctly, crucible compresses the powdered metal into blocks
if you melt it on your own furnace, that kinda defeats the purpose of homogenising the metal, doesn't it?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top