Steel Cutting Question

Uncle Timbo

Uncle Timbo

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2005
Messages
5,385
First off, I do not know what I'm doing. My dad always told me (before he died) son, get me an old crosscut saw and I'll make you the best knife you ever had. Dad did not believe in stainless steel. He said, it doesn't hold an edge long enough. I know, there are some great SS out there today. But I digress. My question is, can I use a 14" chop saw to cut the steel down a tad or will this mess up the steel?
Please help me ol wise ones.
 
Depends on your chop saw RPM, Torque, and Blade you are using.

You cannot cut steel with your wood chop saw/Blade combo.
 
If you want to use this saw to chop out a piece of the old saw that will be fine as long as you stay away from your final shape of the blade you want to make. These saws create alot of heat and will knock the temper right out of the steel were you cut with the chop saw.
 
MuskieTim said:
First off, I do not know what I'm doing.

Boy, do I know that feeling!!!

My question is, can I use a 14" chop saw to cut the steel down a tad or will this mess up the steel?
Click to expand...

What exactly are you afraid of messing up? If you plan to keep whatever heat treatment the steel currently has then a chop saw could screw it up.

If, on the other hand, you intend to anneal the steel to make it easier to work, and follow up with a new heat treatment on it I don't see how it would matter.

- Paul Meske
 
It would be a metal cutting blade. I do not have a band saw. I was afraid of messing with it's properties. But as I told you, I don't know alot.(actually very little) What do I have to do to the steel after I shape the knife and grind my edge? My Dad was not a knife maker. Just an all around tinkerer.
 
MuskieTim said:
It would be a metal cutting blade. I do not have a band saw. I was afraid of messing with it's properties. But as I told you, I don't know alot.(actually very little) What do I have to do to the steel after I shape the knife and grind my edge? My Dad was not a knife maker. Just an all around tinkerer.
Click to expand...

In my mind the answer would depend upon what you've done to the steel up to that point. Let me back up and speak in generalities for a bit.

Many people make knives from files. Because a file is so HARD and BRITTLE they will soften it by annealing it. This is usually done by heating it up dull red hot then sloooooowly cool it. In theory it is not soft enough to be worked with a file. It also requires that it receive a new heat treatment to make the blade the proper hardness.

Now let me try to answer the question,... It depends.

1. Are you trying to maintain the heat treatment of the saw blade by not annealing it to make it easier to shape? If the answer is YES, then you could put a handle on it and use it.

2. If, on the other hand, you find that you are not able to work the steel in its current hardness and you anneal it, or if while working it you accidentally overheat it so that it significantly alters the heat treatment process it currently has, or if the saw blade was differentially hardened so that the teeth were harder than the rest of the saw the beveled blade should receive a new heat treatment.

Others may have an idea what the steel is in that saw blade but it's probably pretty good stuff if it can cut down trees. However the TYPE of steel is only half the equation. Proper heat treatment is what makes the steel hard enough to keep a sharp edge. Great steel will perform poorly unless it's properly heat treated, and for your saw to work means it is already hardened and tempered to work as a saw. What is the thickness of the steel? Do you have some idea of the type of knife you want to make? What tools do you have to use for making the bevel of your knife?

As I am typing all this up it occurs to me that perhaps you are not ready to use the crosscut saw to make a knife yet. I'm thinking that you would be better off making a knife from some good steel and in the process learn a lot more about what you will be dealing with when you finally do use the saw blade steel. It would be a nice testament to your Dad (on this Father's Day) that you take the time a trouble to do this properly rather than slapping something together.

One thing you could do is go to you local library and see if you can get The $50 Knife Shop book by Wayne Goddard. You may have to get it through inter-library loan.

Also check out the information in the sticky titled ***Newbies , Good info Here***.

- Paul Meske
 
diddo above and great book, i learned alot from it, mine is trashed from reading it over and over, like a car repair manual...good luck kid..watch that saw steel, i use it and it moves all over the place, and read the stickies, lots of good info here...
 
lonepine said:
The $50 Knife Shop book by Wayne Goddard.
Click to expand...
Extremely popular, and probably responsible for more mediocre-at-best knives made by people who don't really care too much about results or performance than any other resource except the internet and old wives' tales. Very handy if you have a junkyard nearby with lots of unknown leaf-springs and lawnmower blades laying around.

Use up your dull files, old saw blades, and whatever else that seems to be some sort of steel. Have fun and take pride in what you've accomplished. Then order $15 dollar's worth* of known fresh cutlery steel, grind or forge it exactly the same way and have it HT'ed by a pro. Compare and enjoy.

*less than the cost of that book, by the way ;)

EDIT: $50 Knife Shop isn't worthless, or "bad" neccesarily. But it's dang sure not the Bible of making a really excellent knife, either. "How to Make Knives" with extensive sections on stock-removal by Bob Loveless, and forging by Bill Moran is a far better resource.
 
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Thank you James. Thanks you Gresham. Thank you Lonepine. Thank you all. I guess I thought I could use the steel the way it was? I will buy the book and then see if I think the same way?
FYI: Just a 3-4 inch bushcraft type knife.
 
james terrio said:
Then order $15 dollar's worth* of known fresh cutlery steel, grind or forge it exactly the same way and have it HT'ed by a pro.

EDIT: $50 Knife Shop isn't worthless, or "bad" neccesarily. But it's dang sure not the Bible of making a really excellent knife, either.
Click to expand...

I agree.

I hesitated to post this, because of your gold status, post count and Join Date you aren't really "new" but I put it up often.
I hope you find something useful in it.




The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers v15

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings & the Loveless book. Google books thread


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

The goop quench is total Bull.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmiting
“"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced.)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Using the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent”
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
If you send out for heat treating, you can use O1, A2, D2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.

If you heat treat yourself, find some 1070, 1080, 1084,
1084 FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for knifemaking.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf

http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://www.atlasknife.com

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309



Searching
Search works for all users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here


V15 added Craftsman pulley mod video links
 
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Thank you 1234567890, I have made this a "Personal Sticky" I know how to use one, not make one.
 
re: $50 knife shop... I've skimmed it, and read Wayne's earlier book "the wonder of Knifemaking" (hey there's a photo of me in it), both are valuable and both state that forging is not necessary or even desirable, also starting with known steel is the way to go just as he says, but they do tell you how to get going with other alternatives. Wayne started a long time before metallurgists were here to help us out on BF, and his skills with his equipment are awesome, but the most important things he taught me were commitment to our craft and gumption, no excuses about where to find tools or materials or space or even sandpaper, he did it all from practically nothing and helped popularize knifemaking to the point we have entire forums dedicated to helping people make knives. :)
 
MuskieTim said:
First off, I do not know what I'm doing. My dad always told me (before he died) son, get me an old crosscut saw and I'll make you the best knife you ever had. Dad did not believe in stainless steel. He said, it doesn't hold an edge long enough. I know, there are some great SS out there today. But I digress. My question is, can I use a 14" chop saw to cut the steel down a tad or will this mess up the steel?
Please help me ol wise ones.
Click to expand...

I agree with your dad. I've made some very good knives from old cross cut saw steel, BUT I heat treated it.

Yes a chop saw will work and not hurt the steel. I used to use a cutting torch, BUT I heat treated my blades.

This was/is my favorite knife making book; David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking.

Good luck!
 
wnease said:
re: $50 knife shop...
Click to expand...

I should point out that I don't mean to slam Wayne Goddard, it's undeniable that he gave knifemaking a real boost as you say. I read it cover-to-cover I don't know how many times and I sure learned a lot, it's a starting point for sure. :thumbup:
 
Some of my first knives were made from an old two man saw. It is good carbon steel and is basically already hardened to a point! I never had it tested to see what that point was. The steel makes a knife that can be honed to a razor edge and will hold that edge fairly well. It is also easy to bring back to that razor edge if you don't let it get to dull before you hone it again.

As already pointed out by Don Hanson, you can do your own HT process afterward and actually make it harder than it is in its present state. If you are going to HT afterwards then by all means it’s not a great worry about getting it too hot with a chop saw.

I cut my first ones with a right angle grinder and left extra. Then during the final shaping process I cooled often while grinding it down to shape. To be able to drill holes I had to spot anneal. In other words I wrapped the blade portion in a wet rag to help with heat transfer and got the spot I wanted to drill red hot and drilled while it was red hot. The heat of the red hot spot will allow you to drill a couple of holes before you completely ruin a bit! And I tried every kind of bit, some of the best were cheap masonry bits with carbide heads but after a hole or two it tore them up too. You drill at high speed and with as much pressure as you can put on them.

I have learned a lot since then. If I were to do it all over now I would cut out the rough shape and then anneal the piece. That would make it easier to grind down, as well as allowing you to drill the piece without burning up bits. In this scenario you drill at slow speed and with only a little pressure on it.

Maybe Don can tell you exactly how to do the heat treat process on such steel. I think you are probably looking at something like 1080 or 1095 with the steel. However without testing it falls into that mystery steel category and treatment is unknown.

You can make a knife from it both ways annealed and then HT or by being very careful not to get it too hot and working with it as is. The second is not always an easy process and the final hardness may vary! Hope all that makes sense and helps to answer your questions!
 
Gentlemen, I cannot thank you all enough. You all ARE my father re-incarnated. He must of directed me here so I can gain the knowledge needed to make this knife. I am EXTREMELY busy right now with obligations to others so don't get too mad if I don't jump on this immediately. (too many irons in the fire???) (Like I really know what that means)
 
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