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Steel differences?
- Thread starter Wood
- Start date
Crucible Steel has an S30V Data Sheet that you should take a look at. Halfway down the left side is a bar graph showing "Toughness" and "Wear Resistance" comparison of a number of steels. D2 and 440C are two steels that S30V is compared to.
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440C good, D2 better ,S30V best for all properties I think. They really mark the progession of stainless knife steels My newest is a S30V which I am very pleased with and that certainly is the best stainless steel for knives available today and that is why you see more and more custom and production knives using it.
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440C is a stainless steel and will hold a great edge. It is also highley rust resistant and takes a great polish. It is also very easy to sharpen.
D2 is a tool steel (semi-stainless) and will hold a little better edge then 440C. Less resistant to rust than 440C, but usually has a coating to help out with this. More difficult than 440C to sharpen.
S30V is a powdered stainless steel. It holds a little better edge then D2 and is highley rust resistant like 440C. Doesn't take a good polish, and is kind of hard to sharpen like D2.
All three are good steels, and while they all are better then each other at various things I would say 440C is MY favorite out of these three. It is quick to sharpen and holds a great edge. It also is the prettiest of the three.
Steel snobs will tell you S30V is the far and away the greatest thing ever...but I will disagree. It holds a better edge then 440C (a little better), but it also is a pain to sharpen and not as good looking. 440C is better then anything our ancestors had and today some people will turn their noses at it...
-Kevin
D2 is a tool steel (semi-stainless) and will hold a little better edge then 440C. Less resistant to rust than 440C, but usually has a coating to help out with this. More difficult than 440C to sharpen.
S30V is a powdered stainless steel. It holds a little better edge then D2 and is highley rust resistant like 440C. Doesn't take a good polish, and is kind of hard to sharpen like D2.
All three are good steels, and while they all are better then each other at various things I would say 440C is MY favorite out of these three. It is quick to sharpen and holds a great edge. It also is the prettiest of the three.
Steel snobs will tell you S30V is the far and away the greatest thing ever...but I will disagree. It holds a better edge then 440C (a little better), but it also is a pain to sharpen and not as good looking. 440C is better then anything our ancestors had and today some people will turn their noses at it...
-Kevin
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440C is cheap, D2 is less cheap, and S30V is costly.
I am a D2 fan myself. D2 supposedly form microserrations at the edge even whem polished, due to the spacing of the carbides. I do not know if this is true, but I seem to be able to get D2 much sharper than anything else. Also, it is somewhat stainless even though it is a tool steel - it is still significantly less corrosion resistant than 440C or S30V, although this is rarely an issue.
As for 440C, Benchmade seems to make wonderfully sharp knives out of it - the Sheepsfoot Griptilian is very sharp, due in part to blade geometry. I have a couple of other 440C knives that are very much sub-par, however.
I am a D2 fan myself. D2 supposedly form microserrations at the edge even whem polished, due to the spacing of the carbides. I do not know if this is true, but I seem to be able to get D2 much sharper than anything else. Also, it is somewhat stainless even though it is a tool steel - it is still significantly less corrosion resistant than 440C or S30V, although this is rarely an issue.
As for 440C, Benchmade seems to make wonderfully sharp knives out of it - the Sheepsfoot Griptilian is very sharp, due in part to blade geometry. I have a couple of other 440C knives that are very much sub-par, however.
I'm a steel snob, I guess. My Spyderco Native CPMS30V is my favorite always carry knife. It cuts tape, cardboard, rope, plastic bags, etc. and never gets dull, sharpest blade I have. Also have 154CM, D2, 440C and like them all. But the Native is just better for me.
og
og
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oldgranpa said:
I wasn't suggesting that anyone who likes S30V is a steel snob. I'm sorry if that is the way you took it.
I like S30V myself. I just PREFER 440C.
I owned an S30V Native. Nice knife, but the handle bugged me a little. I can assure you that the S30V gets dull too
.-Kevin
Thanks for the sheet Ras. Was helpful.
Thinking back to high school enigneering classes now and having seen that spec sheet I think D2 is a higher carbon steel that holds an edge better and is harder than 440C. On the down side it's more brittle and more prone to chipping as well as having less corrosion resistance. Also takes longer to sharpen.
So I guess it really comes down to what you need to use it for. A kitchen knife or EDC would suit 440C as it's easy to sharpen, less likely to chip, crack or break and more suited to being bashed, watered and dropped.
D2 would suit knives that aren't used as often like custom pieces or collectors items that don't need to be sharpened as often and are most likely to be stored and taken care of rather than used.
I think S30V is trying to find the best balance in the areas of edge retention, toughness and corrosion resistance. Having a hard, edge holding knife, that is a bit tougher and less likely to chip, as well as being more resistant to rust.
Well that's the theory anyway. Whether there's any huge differences that the average person is going to notice is debatable.
I think my best example is my Gerber Ez Out that has a dull gray blade which sharpens quick, takes a beating is is a really good EDC knife.
On the other hand I have Cold Steel Voyager that I hardly use that takes a while to sharpen and holds the edge well, but rust easily and gets nicks all the time.
I'll be interested to see how the S30V in my new M4 bali shapes up.
Thinking back to high school enigneering classes now and having seen that spec sheet I think D2 is a higher carbon steel that holds an edge better and is harder than 440C. On the down side it's more brittle and more prone to chipping as well as having less corrosion resistance. Also takes longer to sharpen.
So I guess it really comes down to what you need to use it for. A kitchen knife or EDC would suit 440C as it's easy to sharpen, less likely to chip, crack or break and more suited to being bashed, watered and dropped.
D2 would suit knives that aren't used as often like custom pieces or collectors items that don't need to be sharpened as often and are most likely to be stored and taken care of rather than used.
I think S30V is trying to find the best balance in the areas of edge retention, toughness and corrosion resistance. Having a hard, edge holding knife, that is a bit tougher and less likely to chip, as well as being more resistant to rust.
Well that's the theory anyway. Whether there's any huge differences that the average person is going to notice is debatable.
I think my best example is my Gerber Ez Out that has a dull gray blade which sharpens quick, takes a beating is is a really good EDC knife.
On the other hand I have Cold Steel Voyager that I hardly use that takes a while to sharpen and holds the edge well, but rust easily and gets nicks all the time.
I'll be interested to see how the S30V in my new M4 bali shapes up.
Oh one other thing BTW, I read in the New Scientist magazine a while back about a guy who had found the perfect ratio for carbon in steel. He called it the "dragon steel" or something. Apparently when taken up against some of the best traditional Japanese sword steel it took a 7" gouge out. Anyone else read that article? Anyone know what the hell I'm on about?
Joe Talmadge has a post regarding the Data Sheets in a Tool Steel Thread at TheHighRoad forum. It's a good read. As Jim March says in the same thread, "heat-treat matters".
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440C has been around for quite a while and it's still one of the better allround steels out there: edge-holding capabilities, ease of sharpening, toughness and rust resistance are all good, but not great.
D2 has a very grainy structure and therefore won't take a very fine edge. It does, however hold an edge very well. It is classified as being somewhere between stainless and carbon steels in terms of corrosion resistance. Resharpening D2 can be a major PITA.
S30V is one of the modern "high-tech" alloys and it's hard to beat when it comes to taking a very fine edge and holding it for a long time. It's pretty rust-resistant, but not easy to sharpen.
D2 has a very grainy structure and therefore won't take a very fine edge. It does, however hold an edge very well. It is classified as being somewhere between stainless and carbon steels in terms of corrosion resistance. Resharpening D2 can be a major PITA.
S30V is one of the modern "high-tech" alloys and it's hard to beat when it comes to taking a very fine edge and holding it for a long time. It's pretty rust-resistant, but not easy to sharpen.
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At HRC 60, D2 is noticably easier to sharpen than S30V. S30V takes a finer edge. Neither one is very easy to get a polish on. Wood, if you want a fancy knife for a collector's item, get a mirror polished 440C. D2 is a using steel as is S30V.
Gossman Knives
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I agree with Shgeo.D-2 and S30V are working steels although 440C is a good steel on a working knife also. The problem is with a blade that is highly polished it will scratch as soon as you go to cut something. D-2 to and S30V don't take a high polish so they don't have that wow! factor when you first look at the knife. As far as edge holding goes the higher the rockwell the harder it will be to resharpen even though it will stay sharper longer usually not that much longer. I like them hardened at 58 rockwell this works good for me. just my opinion.
www.knifeshows.com/gossman ScoGo@aol.com
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ras said:
154CM/Ats-34 can both probably be thrown in right above 440C. They have slightly improved edge holding over 440C while still taking a nice polish. The rust resistance is probably close to 440C. Sharpening takes longer then 440C though... but at least not as long as S30V and D2.
154CM and Ats-34 are great steels!
-Kevin
nozh2002
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S30V takes high polish! Here the proofe:Razorback - Knives said:
I tried to make this picture to show mirror polish.
I think that 440C is just not top steel like other mentioned. Does not mean thet it is bad or something but for now it is VG-10 and CPM S30V top stainless (at least most promouted) and A2, D2 and M2 top carbon (on my own opinion).
Thanks, Vassili.
Gossman Knives
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Thanks for the pic. I was just going by some knives I've seen with S30V. I've never worked with this steel.
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nozh2002 said:S30V takes high polish! Here the proofe:
I tried to make this picture to show mirror polish.
I think that 440C is just not top steel like other mentioned. Does not mean thet it is bad or something but for now it is VG-10 and CPM S30V top stainless (at least most promouted) and A2, D2 and M2 top carbon (on my own opinion).
Thanks, Vassili.
Hey Vassili,
It's not that S30V CAN'T get a great polish, it's that its so hard too. Many custom makers don't like using it for this reason. (Besides looking at your pic, just look at a sharp edge on an S30V knife. It is obviously polished.)
-Kevin