Steel for a short sword?

D

Dave Fulton

Joined
Feb 11, 1999
Messages
568
I hope this isn't a silly question, but I was reading about the different types of steels and still a BIT confused.

It's probably somewhat subjective I realize, but what steel (s) are best for use in a short sword blade? The blade I'm thinking of would be approximately 15-18" long and would be a user, not a decorative piece.

TIA.

Dave.
 
depending on how tough you want it to be, how thin the edge and how expensive, I'd suggest:<ul>
[*]CPM-3V-probably the best overall, but somewhat expensive and hard to work.
[*]5160-cheap, easy to work and heat-treat, reasonably tough, but unless you are willing to clay temper, it's hard to get a really sharp edge. Kris Cutlery uses the stuff, and they turn out some good, user blades.
[*]1084-cheap, similar characteristics to 5160, but more carbon and no chromium make it even more prone to rust.
[*]52100-second to 3V, but if you can diff treat it, might be really close. It is harder to forge than 1084 or 5160, smaller working temp range. I'm not sure if it is available in sheet form, but it's probably your best bet if you are forging.(I think forging 3V is only for the insane
smile.gif
)
[*]last one, just thought of it: L6 or 15N20(I think). Tough, you can clay temper it, but no visable hamon. I know someone out there makes Japanese swords out of it, but I don't know much else.
[/list]
Sorry this didn't give you a definate answer, but my reccomendations would be: <ul>
[*]if you(or whoever is making the sword) are an experienced forger, 52100
[*]if more of a novice forger, 5160 or 1084(I don't have enough experience to pick between the two)
[*]if stock-removal, and you can find it(it's not always available in knife sizes) 3V. otherwise 52100(same scarcity) or L6/15N20.
[*]If you want to do the heat-treat, 5160 or 1084. both are available everywhere and easy to temper.
[/list]
hope this diatribe was helpful. Just to confuse you a little more, A2 and D2 might be possibilities, but I know very little about them, so I'll let someone else tell the tale.
Aaron

------------------
aaronm@cs.brandeis.edu
I like my women like I like my knives: strong, sharp, well-formed and pattern-welded!
 
I know several good sword smiths who make very good blades. One uses 5160 mostly but also uses pattern welded steel, a couple of others use L6 and 1086 (1084 is just about the same thing as 1086). I would suggest you ask your question on another good forum also: http://swordforum.com/cafe/
as most of the good sword smiths visit that forum often and can answer your question from their experiences. I know from my experience that they will want you give more information like what kind of short sword, whether it will be forged or done from stock removal, what type of heat treatment you are looking for, what your background is as far as knife making or sword making (sword making is a totally different animal than knife making), etc..
Hope this helps,
Ravenclaw
 
Thanks for responding Amacks!

As for how expensive, I'd like to keep it down as much as possible and still make a strong sword.

As for how tough, I want it to be tough enough to handle hard impacts with other hard objects like: other swords & bone.

As for the edge, it should be capable of delivering a deadly cut, but not so thin as to roll upon the above impacts.

As a FMA practitioner, I want a real sword that I could use to proctect my home and family should the need present itself.

Dave.
 
Outside of bladeforums, I've never heard anyone recommend 52100 as a great steel for a high-toughness application like a short sword. Most makers tell me 52100 for their low-toughness but high-edge-holding hunters, and 5160 (or whatever) for the bigger tougher blades. They distinctly point to lower toughness for 52100 blades.

Amacks, do you have information to the contrary? You seem to be saying 52100 is even tougher than 5160. Or are you?

Joe
 
Joe I don't agree with much of what amacks says, like the clay temper for 5160 that is silly. A clay temper will give you a better temper line but it will not make it cut better. Plus saying Cpm3V is best is well kind of jumping the gun. I don't to many that has made anything from it yet.(I am working on a sword from it now)So without data you can't say it is best, The spec sheets look good for it but you can't believe everything you read.

And as far as 1084 and 5160 as being close well that depends how you look at it. The finished product will be close if both are heat treated right but the 1084 is harder to heat treat right. On 1084 you have to go from critical temp to below 400 in under 1sec on 5160 you have about 6sec to get there.
5160 is much much easyer to heat treat right or at least good enough, if you get it off a little it still makes a good blade. Just not perfect.

Ok now here where I do agree with amacks it is in saying 52100 stell makes a good sword.
I believe it does make a great sword. And most knowledgeable person that says the same thing is Daryl Meier is says that if heattreated right 52100 will be better tougher then most anything including 5160.
Now I don't beleive everybody I hear but Daryl is one person I do beleive unless I get data to prove him wrong.

There are a few smiths that have made swords outof 52100 so I know it has been done. These smiths tested the blades and said they where tuff.

------------------
-Greg Johnson
ICQ#4236341


 
Thanks Greg, I have learned from you post. But my opinion is different than yours about the clay coating. Granted it does not make the blade cut better but that is not it purpose. Its purpose is to make the edge harder than the body of the blade. It gives the blade better tinsel strenght thus making it perform better. I don't think the steel choice is the issue so much as how the blade is heat treated. If you don't do the heat treatment right it doesn't matter what steel you use. Some are more forgiving than others like you mentioned with the 5160 (and I think that is why it is used so much).

Following is how I was instructed to do heat treatment for clay coated 1084 blades. First I cycle the steel up and down at least three times (normalize 3X) from a temperature that is just slightly over "critical". Then I quench from as close to the low end of critical as I can. I check this with a magnet on a wire. I heat the blade up until it becomes non-magnetic, then get it even at that temp. Then I use warm (100-115F) water for the quench. The piece goes into the quench for 5 seconds, out for 5 seconds, then back in. I verify the edge with a sharp file and if it proves out, I do a triple draw at 350F (30 minutes each). This produces a blade with the edge around 58-59RC and the body around 46-48RC. I do this for my Japanese style blades. It also produces a great looking temper line (hamon). This method also takes a lot of practice to get good results.

Dave I still suggest you go to the forum I referred to before and ask Mr. Meier about this as he is an active member there. There are also many other sword smiths there. It is like Greg said:

"Now I don't beleive everybody I hear but Daryl is one person I do beleive unless I get data to prove him wrong."
You cannot go wrong with that statement.

I also think the more people you can get answers from the better as it gives more choices and methods to work with.

I hope I have not offended anyone with this post as that was not my intention.
Ravenclaw
 
Hi Ravenclaw, I agree with you but one thing. What I was saying about the clay on the 5160 is you don't need it to get the edge harder then the back. I reread my post it was not very clear. A writer I am not.
But I think all blades should have a edge harder then the spine. But you don't need clay to do this. You can edge quench it or what I like now( I started out doing edge quenching) to harder the whole blade the same and bring the back softer by heating it up more after the temper.
But the best heat treat and I am not setup fot it yet. You really need a salt quench tank to do it right. Is interrupt the quench and hold the edge at about 400deg for a couples of sec and hold the rest at 400deg for a few min. I would tell you the names of the quench but I can't remember how to spell it.
Hey can somebody help me what is it called.
I will look it up.

------------------
-Greg Johnson
ICQ#4236341




[This message has been edited by gregj62 (edited 26 May 1999).]
 
Thanks Greg,
I agree with you. Clay is not needed to make the edge harder. I do for one style of blades I make (Japanese). I have found it is also harder to do than edge quenching. I don't limit myself just to clay. I am not set up yet with a salt bath either but am hoping to have one by summers end.
Ravenclaw
 
Mad Dog uses Starrett alloy 496-01 in his Saxon short sword.

Rob Simonich uses ATS34 in his SRT.
 
I would in no way ever consider stainless steel for a sword. It is great for knife size blades but not for swords. As I stated before, swords are a completly different animal to make than knives are if they are to be made right. Stainless is either to brittle in long blades or to soft to hold an edge. None of the people who do re-enactments use it. No one who does cutting with Japanese blades uses it either. It makes a great wall decoration but that is about it. My first sword purchase, which was a mistake, was made out of stainless. It is pretty to look at but is not a functional sword. Don't mean to rain on anybody's parade but that is my experience with stainless as far as swords. I do however use 440C for making knives and it works great. If you talk to sword smiths you will find the same answers about stainless.
 
I'd normally rule out ATS-34 for a short sword also. However, people who have knives made from ATS-34 using the lower curve on the heat treat (i.e., Ernie Mayer heat treat instead of Paul Bos heat treat) are reporting some pretty impressive results. You might want to ask about this specifically, say in the knife review forum. I believe there are some Ernie Mayer big bowies & short swords that have been put to the test and shown much more toughness than I would ever believe ATS-34 could have.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Just one clarification: I didn't know there was any other way to edge-harden steel then using clay, but it was the hard edge and spring body I was going for, not specific technique.

My information on 52100 in large blades comes mostly from Meier's work, and somewhat from Bailey Bradshaw., who makes some very tough bowies, but nothing larger.

About 3V: I agree there isn't enough info to make a final decision, but everything I have heard is good, and nothing I have heard is bad
smile.gif

Aaron

------------------
aaronm@cs.brandeis.edu
I like my women like I like my knives: strong, sharp, well-formed and pattern-welded!
 
Where and when did Daryl Meier say that 52100 was a good steel for making swords? I can't find anything like that on the swordforum, and I'd like to read what he said. It looks like the general consensus over there is that 52100 in great on anything but swords. Somebody help me out with a reference here.

Thanks,

John
 
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