Steel for sword, suggestions?

R

Rifter

Joined
Dec 15, 2001
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Im getting a sword made, like a katana but with only a 21" blade. It will be strait with no curve and must be able to take abuse so im looking for a really tough steel for it, i have narrowed it down to a few but am open to suggestions. Edgeholding is secondary toughness is the first priority. It will have a differential HT to help the toughness. So far im considering L6, 5160, CPM 3V. Any other suggestions?
 
A-2 and 1045 through 1084 should also be great for swords. Even with 1% carbon and 5% chromium content, A-2 is a very tough steel. O-1 would probably do a great job as well.

5160 might be my overall choice for a sword blade. This is a great steel for big blades. It is basically 1060 with 1% chromium added for deep hardening.
 
If I Was to Have a Short Sword Made !! Here is What I Would Ask For a 3 Layer Blade !! Center Core 5160 , Second Layer 1095 , Third a Steel Cable !! I Believe That Such a Blade Will be a Very Good User , a Differential Heat Treat on the Center Core Complimented By a "Hamon " The Outer 2 Layers Should Help with any "Flex" Issues that May Come About in Real Use !! As I Said Just My Opinion !! Good Luck !! http://www.pinoyknife.com:)
 
Swords are interesting creatures to tackle. However, your asking us for steel suggestions is a little awkward. *We* are not making your sword, and I will go out on the limb to say nearly every aspect of a sword's performance will be determined by 2 things: shaping and heat treatment. The maker in my opinion is FAR more important than what he uses, so this begs the question:

Who's making it? If they are not extremely well versed in controlling steel, I would suggest 5160. It will offer you an excellent sword, be very tough and will turn out very good even if the heat treat is not perfect.

Pinoy: Laminate blades actually yield little or no advantage in a sword's resistance to bending. They are not necessarily bad, but they are not inherently superior. Kinda like people saying forge-welding combines soft and hard steel to make an ultra-perfect blade. Steel just doesn't really work that way.

I won't suggest A2 or 3V. Like with most steels, it can be heat treated properly to be tough as nails, but *most* (not all mind you) swordmakers tend to stay away from higher alloys. Of course if the maker is very comfortable with those steels, feel free to give them a shot!

If you are trying to tell a maker what to do, they are not going to be able to take advantage of the steel of your choice. Ask them what they are best with, and what they feel will make the best blade. If they are sure of their competence with steel A and not steel B, why would you tell them to use steel B?

Personally, I wouldn't care about the steel too much. I would choose a sword by the maker and trust them with the project. Virtually any decent steel from 1050 to S30V and even 440C can be made to hold a good edge and still be very tough, though the makers who I would most like a sword from have their preferences in steel. I would trust their preferences a *hell* of a lot more than I would trust static suggestions here. Like I said, we're not making your blade.

Just as important is the design and construction of the sword. If not designed right but heat-treated well, it still will not be a very good sword. It's more than just a bar of heat treated and sharpened steel. This too is reliant on the maker(s).

You might be surprised to hear that relatively inexpensive production swords are actually quite tough and durable. What kind of hard-use do you plan on putting the sword to? Short straight blade...hmmmmmm...what exactly is this for? Seems a little odd....

Best of luck though, try to talk to the maker(s) and figure out what they are comfortable with.
 
Robert has hit on a point that the rest of us missed. Many makers get to know one or two steels incredibly well. Look at Ed Fowler and 52100. Ask the maker what his/her recommendation of steel would be. If that maker has a lot of experience making swords then he/she should have a preferred steel to use for your blade.
 
i have not chosen a maker yet, i have talked to a few of them and am trying to narrow it down to someone that is in my price range. There are many good sword makers out there but most of them are way out of my pricerange. So far they seem to be telling me either L6 or 5160 would be best as that is what they usualy work with. The blade will be for martial arts practice, i have used wood trainers in the past and want to move to something more realistic(weight/size). I decided if you are going to really hone your skills you need to do it with the real thing. Trainers can only go so far. The differnce in weight/length of your practice blade and your real blade could mean a few seconds reation time differnce which could mean the match or your life. I would be full length(36") if i had room, but since i have limited practice space available 21" is about the max i could pull off without slicing my apartment up. When practicing of course i will wrap the blade, after all i dont want to go cutting limbs off, although i havent hit myself with the trainer in years im still going to be careful. Thank you all so far for your suggestions.
 
Sorry i Thought you Wanted a Sword to Use Alot !! Try Rob Crisswell here in Oregon !! His Prices are not too bad , Usable Sword , I Make A Very Few Sword's But they all Get the Tough Treatment Like Bending , Cutting Everything , And still have to Look Good !! My 3 Layer Sword Has not Been Matched Yet !! The 3 Layers are For Damaging the Oponent's Blade and i Truely Feel a Very Important Flex Factor !!
if There was No Need for it Why did the Japanese Make Soo Many Gundai Style Sword's ??:p :footinmou
Not Trying to be Snotty Just asking !!
 
it "Might" get tough treatment, but it will mainly get used for practice but needs to be able to take abuse if pressed. Like a hunting rifle, mainly used at the range to practice but when called for it will be pressed into field duty during hunting season and must be able to take the abuse. Same idea.
 
It is my understanding that San Mai (three-layer) blades evolved in Japanese sword making as a way of conserving precious material, not a way of improving performance compared to differentially tempered steel. Such blades were the economy models, not the ultimate in performance.

I rarely do this, but I wanted to say to Robert: Outstanding Post! Folks get so preoccupied with steel choice that they forget about other important factors, including cost.

Para
 
Tamahagane is not exactly cheap (tatara manufacture and operation was not efficient), and the material was not very pure or consistent. In my opinion, due to the lack of post-hardening quench and the laminate techniques, the Japanese seemed to favor a very hard edge opposed to a very tough blade, and bending was much more favorable than having a crack from an over-hardened edge propagate far enough to break the blade. Here's a few thoughts...

A very strong opinion is what Para said...economical efficiency. You took the steel you could get, and you did not want to diffuse all the carbon by making a single billet through high layer forge-welding (which was done with similar steel compositions for purification purposes, not strength or toughness). This way you are getting the best "bang" for your buck, especially if edge-retention is a key priority. You can get a very hard edge, which may actually be somewhat fragile, along with a body that is ductile.

However, lateral stress on a very hard edge will cause cracks in that edge. The "performance" aspect of laminate blades is most likely due to the fact that cracks or chips can form in the edge but will not propagate very far. This way, the edge can take relatively severe damage while not rendering the sword as a whole useless. The issues of edge durability can readily be overcome with modern blades, and they were also overcome in a number of old swords. However, swords were not originally these spiritually revered weapons, they were not the "soul of the samurai" as they were later touted in the Tokugawa period. They were implements of war and as such needed to be produced fast enough and cheap enough. Laminate constructions were one way of answering this. Also note: when swords were made in old Japan, heat treat was not always consistent, or even of high quality. The safety of a laminate blade helps offset a mediocre heat treat enough that the sword is still plenty usable. Not every sword in Japan was a masterpiece.

Nowadays, several makers offer a variety of styles, including laminate construction options. However, they find that there is usually no real performance advantage. In most cases, a laminate sword will bend like taffy compared to a single-steel blade, but will be extremely difficult to break. This is fine, but in any use you are going to put the blade to, breakage is nearly impossible anyway, and you are at much greater risk of bending or chipping. Laminate blades do not prevent these better than a single-steel blade.

There is nothing *wrong* with laminate blades, but non-laminated blades by Clark, Bell, Barrett, and (as much as I hate to admit it) Hartsfield and MANY others are considered easily the "performance" equal to any laminate blade.

Sorry for the continued ranting :D
 
You are a Little More "Right than me on this one !! I Just Prefere to Let the Buyer Know What are All of his / Her Choices !! i Prefer a Blade that will bend like Taffy and Still if Nothing Else be able to be Used as a Club !! I Dread the Thought But it Could Happen !! In a Edge Only Heat Treat You do Get "Some " Flexibility I Go For All it Can Be !! Good Cutter and Flexible !!
Just a Difference of Opinion's I Guess !! it is Ok we can Still be "Friend's " Right ?? ;) :p
 
Er, ahh, hmmmm.

Is not the Japanese forging method of tradition more a matter of making the steel they work with homogenous? Pounding and folding to make a nice mellow mix? (I'm seldom right, so this time I could be wrong) Laminated perhaps but not with the methodology that has been suggested by the San Mai (doesn't Cold Steel do this?) post. (It's all true, I saw it on PBS)

The Europeans of old did weld tough and mild in patterns and edges. Them Swedes and others still do laminate short blades and it works well.

I think the fellow really needs a Criswell (A2)wak but fer crissakes, don't wrap it. Any benefit of "actual sword like feeling" will be offset by the weight of the rag (or tape)

Yes, the 10XX series seems popular with the sword folk, along with 5160/6150 springy stuff and L6 appears to be wonderful if you know what your doing.

Cheers

GC
 
Heya Horseclover...

If you look at Japanese sword constructions, there are a number of laminate techniques, which are different from simple high-layer forge-welding (which also was done, and is what displays the hada or grain on the swords' surfaces). The most well-known to Westerners is honsanmai, or just sanmai to most. Many think it is just one piece of steel for the edge and core with 2 sides on it (after all, san = three...so it's 3 pieces right?) This isn't entirely correct.

There are a few different types of steel, categorized predominantly by carbon content (since nearly all tamahagane was extremely low-alloy, "simpler" than 10xx grades). Shingane was soft steel or mild steel/iron. Kawagane was midrange steel, which was hardenable but would not be as optimal as Hagane, which was the high carbon steel suited for edges. Forge-welding all these together into a high-layer billet would result in very thorough carbon migration, which may render the overall sword lacking in edge retention (one reason I speculated that high edge-hardness was a priority to Japanese swords).

Forge-welding pieces of similar steel together did help homogenize the piece, but you don't need to forge-weld a bar of steel to homogenize its carbon distribution! Trace elements were more evenly spread throughout the billets when high layer forge-welding was implemented, but the primary objective was still to remove impurities from the tamahagane, which was relatively dirty.

Honsanmai actually has a core, edge, and sides (4 pieces). If you would like to see some nice "sketches" depicting a few laminate constructions...

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/laminate.htm

Like I said, the main difference between these "grades" of steel was carbon content. While carbon migration still occurred, I do not believe it was rapid enough to homogenize a laminate sunobe. This allows for a way to implement a large amount of moderate and low-carbon steel in a blade without pulling away too much carbon from the edge.

Even in the Nihonto world (and actually in Japanese swordmaking too), many people *assume* that things like laminate constructions were to make superior swords, even if it wasn't necessarily the case.

Of course, there's nothing WRONG with them, unless they aren't made very well. The biggest problems are welding flaws between pieces, which may not be visible as they are under the surface. However, if they are made and heat treated well, they can make excellent swords, just as single-steel blades can.
 
Rifter,

1045 or S-5. Hey wait, that's what I use! :p I do blade only custom stuff if you are interested.

-Jason
 
Jason, I don't recall seeing anyone else use S-5 for making blades. This steel is about as tough as they come. How is it to work with?
 
Thanks for the link Robert. These subtleties are often lost in what few grey cells I have left and it's good to review.

I think the PBS film did actually show the smith laying up several billets together and all I chose to retain was the master tinking with his little hammer, showing the other two where to smack with the big ones. (much of this just to illustrate tthe puff pastry routine)

Cheers

GC
 
Keith,
It seems a bit tougher under the hammer than 1045, but not by much on average. Its probably just me though. Probably cause for now I forge everything down from round bar and my mood varies. Need a press though, badly. :p
It requires a rather exhaustive full annealing session, that I use after the forging process. Can only be done with accurate temp control. Must be held at precise temps for several hours. Otherwise it tends to form small amounts of martensite if you simply normalize or do a full anneal like a lot 10xx stuff. Hardens rather deep.
It grinds like any other full annealed or spher. annealed common low alloy or carbon steel I.e, 5160, L6, 1084, etc. Nothing much different with the anneal I am using for it.
My work with it is in experimental phases right now. But I will likely have something to show in the next month or less hopefully. I only use S-5 for a special class of work similar to Howard Clark's L6. That is... thay are martensite/bainite composites. Its too much of a hassle to use on standard stuff. So I stick with 1045 for standard stuff.

-Jason
 
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