Steel liners/bolsters... a comeback??

puukkoman

puukkoman

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I just saw the thread about the GEC all-steel Toenail pattern... and I got very excited. This is what I've been waiting for! Well... almost.

For years, I've thought that it was kinda silly for most pocket knife makers to use brass and nickel silver. These are not working metals, they are not suitable for use in tools. Brass and silver are soft metals, suitable only for jewelry, musical instruments, and doorknobs on boats! So... I came to understand that the state of modern pocket knives was shaped by a desire (by the consumer) to sacrifice performance in favor of ease of maintenance (since the only logical reason I can think of to use these softer metals is corrosion resistance). This is the same logic that leads pocket knife manufacturers to use crappy stainless, instead of high-performing carbon steels... ease of maintenance for the lazy/spoiled/ignorant consumer. Bah-humbug! ;)

So, imagine my glee when I heard about this new offering from GEC, with ALL STEEL construction! Finally, an actual TOOL, made to be USED!

Now, my next question is this: Who else, besides custom makers, is using steel for the liners and bolsters, making knives the way they should be made?

I have had a couple current-production knives from Mercator in Solingen, and these have had steel liners & bolsters. The only problem is in the F&F department, where Mercator's knives (while they are fine tools and work very well) still fall a little short.

So how about more American manufacturers, whose products are up to the standards we've come to expect, using STEEL in their knives?? Any more leads?
 
There are other reasons to use the "softer" metals for production knives. One is better action for less effort -- the liners, being rather softer than the blade, will wear-in quickly, creating a custom fit to the tang, making things smoother and marking up the tang of the blade much less (there are good reasons custom makers go to the trouble of the whole liner milling exercise on stainless liners). Brass or nickel silver against harder steel also has something of a bearing effect - again smoother (old industrial trick - use bronze against steel in really heavy-duty gearing -- for many applications this will last much longer, work more smoothly, and require less lube and maintenance that if they were steel on steel).

Also, you need to realize that the old liners and bolsters were essentially pure IRON, not steel -- extremely low carbon content - thus far less tendency to rust than even mild steel. Quite ductile - easy to work. In fact -- the old iron liners were SOFTER and WEAKER than the brass or nickel silver liners. The brass or nickel silver liners were work hardened -- typically what they call half-hard (some makers even used full-hard or even spring-hard brass for liners). Brass or nickel silver in such work hardened state is MUCH harder, stiffer, and stronger than the pure iron liners. Trust me, I've taken the old knives apart - the difference is not subtle at all. As pure iron, the liners were also much softer than the blade -- so again, they were using a soft liner to get the smoother worn-in fit to the tangs and less scratching of the tangs. Eventually a number of the old makers used brass liners with iron bolsters - something of the best of both worlds (and it looks good too).

Oh, and the primary reason manufacturers use crappy soft stainless rather than higher quality high carbon stainless (after just being a lot cheaper) is that the soft crappy stainless is far easier to blank and causes far less wear and tear to the dies and machinery. The secondary reason is it's shiny and easy to sell to the ignorant - also, being soft, it's rather more difficult for idiots to break (and requires less messing about in heat treat - it's not ever going to really get hard enough to be brittle anyway) - therefor fewer returns. The consideration of whether or not the crappy stainless can actually cut anything - or even be sharpened at all - is way down on their list of priorities.

-- Dwight
 
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I can't say I've had any problem with folders that can be attributed to the liners. My 110s (brass frames), Voyagers (thermoplastic) and other folders with various combinations of brass, nickel silver, etc., work just fine. They won't stand up to the kind of abuse a stout fixed blade will, but I use them for cutting, not prying or splitting.
 
Dwight, thanks for that perspective. Didn't know that the old ones were made with plain iron, instead of steel.

Ed, I imagine your Buck 110 is in a whole different category, since the frame is about 3x thicker than an ordinary pocket knife's liners.

Anyone else care to weigh in?
Regardless, I'm glad to see all-steel construction. Anybody have any info as to other current manufacturers who might be going this route?
 
I note that both my Benchmades, a 710 and Mini-Rukus, have steel liners. I would consider both to be extra stout, for folders. The blades ride on bronze washers and don't directly abut the liners, but neither has any sideways blade play beyond a few millimetres.
 
puukkoman said:
Who else, besides custom makers, is using steel for the liners and bolsters, ...?
Click to expand...

Moki and Al Mar have a few models that may be what you're looking for. They're lockbacks, with stainless steel bolsters and liners. Blade is AUS-8 or VG-10, depending on the model. Very high quality of F&F. Look into the Moki Blackiston (w/o bolsters) and the Crimson Jigged Bone models, for example. Or the Al Mar Eagle, Falcon, and Hawk models.
 
Let's please try to limit discussion in this thread to traditional knives (as appropriate for this forum) and their construction/options.
 
Blues said:
Let's please try to limit discussion in this thread to traditional knives (as appropriate for this forum) and their construction/options.
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Elliott, I hope I didn't break the rules. In my mind, the models I mentioned are traditionals. If I'm wrong please let me know and I'll delete the post.
 
It wasn't directed at anyone in particular...but before we get further off-track discussing non-traditional knives from non-traditional knife manufacturers (one hand openers, thumbstuds, hole openers, liner locks, frame locks etc etc etc), a general reminder was in order.

What the OP is inquiring about is traditional knife manufacturers offering steel liners and bolsters as an option.

Thanks to all for their cooperation.
 
I'm not normally a fan of brass and nickel silver, but they just fit on traditional slip joints. I don't have a problem with them in that medium. On the other hand, I agree that a knife with all-steel construction (i.e., liners & bolsters) tends to indicate better quality, which is why you usually see those materials on customs. But I don't see all-steel construction staging a comeback with production knives, it's too expensive. With the exception of the GEC toenail, the only recent production knives that I've seen with steel liners and bolsters are Case's and Queen's custom collaborations. They are released in limited numbers, like this year's Case/Bose Zulu Spear and the Queen/Burke Rancher that I have on my desk right now. In addition to the steel liners and bolsters, these knives also have premium handle materials, superior fit and finish, and high end steel blades. These are better knives all around and are priced accordingly. As such I don't think they'll ever be all that common. Thankfully we have a slew of options these days, and if you want steel liners and bolsters you can get steel liners and bolsters. You just have to be willing to pay up.

- Christian
 
The Case/ Tony Bose collaboration knives use stainless steel liners and bolsters. That and the 154CM blade steel is what makes them worth $300 or so. The GEC/ Bark River collaboration "Scagels" also use steel liners. I can't tell if the bolsters are steel or nickel silver though. I suspect the latter.

As zerogee mentioned, iron liners were not that great. Actually, they're pretty terrible. I have an old 9 dot Case daddy barlow with iron liners, and they're so soft that you can literally pinch the scales and liners together, using just finger pressure. Like it's made out of licorice. There's a reason why nobody uses iron liners anymore.

I do like steel liners though. Thick, tough and heavy steel liners. If the Case backpocket had beefy steel liners, it would be about perfect.

I would definitely be willing to pay a premium for knives with steel liners, if given the choice. I don't care as much about the bolsters, Nickel silver seems to hold up just fine. What I like about steel liners is that they make the knife very rigid.
 
It is interesting that GEC went to steel on their toenails. I wonder if it is 1095 or?? Anyone know??
 
The steel GEC used on the "Scagels" is apparently stainless. The backspring on mine has developed a patina, the liners have not. My guess is that they would have used the same liner material on the steel toenails. But that's just a guess.
 
Canal Street is using stainless liners with nickel silver bolsters. The reason this isn't more common is that SS on SS contact can be prone to seizing and galling with the wrong alloys. The only way to get away with it is to use a highly wear resistant blade steel, and a softer liner. Otherwise, as Dwight pointed out, the self lubricating properties of a copper alloy more than make up for a bit of strength penalty.
 
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