Steel observations from your average lifetime knife using guy.

F

farmboy

Joined
Aug 31, 1999
Messages
731
I was out in the garage trying to get that razor like hone on the ZT 0456 I just picked up from a forum member here, and something occurred to me.

The ZT is a knife I've been carrying daily, switching out with another knife every few days as the mood strikes. It a quality built knife with CTS 204P steel. It's a sheep's foot style blade. I also own a Spyderco Techno from the same steel, and have carried it for a few years.

The other knife is an Great Eastern Cutlery single bladed #53. It's also a quality built knife, but from some hard, high carbon steel, I assume 1095.

Here's the trick:
When the I notice the GEC starting to drag a little, I touch it up, and I'm good to go. It will stay sharp for weeks, I can get by with that for several months, and then I'll hand sharpen, raising the burr, break the burr with a high angle, and finish on a hard black stone. Simple. Easy. And it will stay sharp for weeks.

When I notice the 0456 (or Techno) I touch up, and we're pretty ok. Not perfect, but OK. After several months I'll hand sharpen.......and sharpen.....and raise a bur, and try to break it, but it just won't. So I'll strop, or hit it with the Sharpmaker, or spend even more time on the black stone. Half the time I get it back, half the time I don't.

For an older guy (58), it's frustrating. Technology brings us better things, we all assume. But in this case, I wonder. The CTS is good stuff, no question. And I know it will get sharp and stay sharp a long time. But when it starts to drag, it starts to turn to dread. What should take a few minutes can take a long time, usually with me setting it down to go think for a while.

I only cut with my knives, probably just like everyone else. Boxes, envelopes, apples, and sandwiches. I've carried a knife for 50 years. Just like my watch and my wallet, it's just a daily essential. Long before there was any "EDC" business.

Why does the new stuff require special techniques or tools? I've done my best here, but I don't see it adding value to my life. I don't get it.

Dammit. I just made an old guy post................
 
Have you tried diamond stones? Stuff like 1095 is nice because like you said, it's easy to touch up and sharpen. I have a GEC made from 1095 and quick easy sharpening has been my experience too. The blades on GECs are pretty thin too and that helps.

When my sebenza, umnumzaan, or any knife of mine with higher end steel gets dull I use diamond bench stones and finish on a fine ceramic rod. I've tried sharpening "super steels" on Arkansas stones, water stones etc. And the diamond stones seem to give you a decent edge the fastest.

I cut fiberglass insulation board (duct board) all day with an s35vn umnumzaan today. Fiberglass insulation dulls a knife super quick.Didn't take long to loose razor sharpness, drug the belly across sheet metal quite a few times. Knife still had a decent working edge that cut well all day. When I got home I had it back to razor sharp in 20-30 minutes using diamond/ ceramic
 
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I use diamonds to do the first 80%, and SIC for the last 20%. Whatever works for you.
 
You could also try touching up the 204p knife sooner before it starts to get dull enough that significant drag is being felt.

If you touch up the edge every so often you can avoid alot of actual time consuming "heavier" sharpening.
 
Well, we all want to live long enough to do an old guy post, because the alternative seems rather unattractive. The new super steels take more effort to sharpen compared to my old carbon steel knives, so I put some time into honing the edge vs. sharpening. I find that running the edge down a honing steel and a brief stropping give me a lot more time between trips to the Sharpmaker. Once it's actually dull, though, it's time to head for the diamonds or it takes a long time to achieve the same result on my ceramics. Not scientific, not terribly coherent, but it works for me.
 
i dislike sharpening. time wise i mean. so i touch up every two days or more if needed and solve major headaches and time i dont want to commit sharpening.....on the newer steels.
 
farmboy said:
For an older guy (58), it's frustrating. Technology brings us better things, we all assume. But in this case, I wonder. The CTS is good stuff, no question. And I know it will get sharp and stay sharp a long time. But when it starts to drag, it starts to turn to dread. What should take a few minutes can take a long time, usually with me setting it down to go think for a while.
Click to expand...

Just a little ahead of you over here at 61. Been in the construction trades on one end of the hammer or the other for over 45 years, and still wear my tool bags as needed. Arthritis in both hands gets me on occasion, and do other afflictions that come with physical labor for so many years. Don't set it down, and don't go think about it. You no doubt have learned to sharpen by hand without guides, machines, special equipment, etc.

I cook a lot. I even do small catering (every construction guy thinks he is handy on the pit!) from time to time. So to keep my medium quality knives sharp that go into the field I bought a 12" 600gr diamond rod to sharpen them. Best decision I ever made for all my years of sharpening. You can edge a knife in seconds. So I started using the rod on my hunting and camping knives. Great results, but for my smaller knives I wanted a finer edge. Found a 1200gr sharpening rod! I can use my coarser rods to clean up edges and can go up the grits until I get what I want on any of my knives. I can sharpen just about any knife with the rods, too. Odd shapes, recurves, etc., not a problem. The 1200gr with a light touch will produce a shaving edge.

And none of my newer steeled knives including S30, S35, 154cm, etc., etc. are a match for the rods. I buy the oval rods, and on my hunting and folding knives with a sharpening notch I can sharpen the entire blade in seconds.

farmboy said:
I only cut with my knives, probably just like everyone else. Boxes, envelopes, apples, and sandwiches. I've carried a knife for 50 years. Just like my watch and my wallet, it's just a daily essential. Long before there was any "EDC" business.
Click to expand...

Using my knives on the job, they do the same work you are talking about but also strip wire on occasion, trim really dirty and gritty materials, do some light prying, etc. They dull frequently and they are sharpened with just a few licks on the rod as needed. BTW, YEARS before I joined here, all of my groups knew that "EDC" meant "every day cigar". Before that in the 80s, I worked with a guy that used to say when I asked him how his day was going, "you know, Robert... SOS / EDC". Every day crap.

farmboy said:
Why does the new stuff require special techniques or tools? I've done my best here, but I don't see it adding value to my life. I don't get it.

Dammit. I just made an old guy post................
Click to expand...

I like the newer steels as they provide a more durable edge and they are more rust and corrosion resistant than their predecessors. That being said, it is getting to be cooler weather down here in Texas and I will pull out my old CASE in 1095 and carry that for a while. I sweat so much I have to clean it constantly and I am spoiled by today's stainless. But I love that old CASE as I bought it in 1976 and it was one of three or four knives I had to my name.

Get the rods and learn how to use them and it will be a game changer. You will be able to sharpen anything that come your way very easily. Then you will be able to carry any knife you might have a whim to carry, steel be damned! My old stones don't see the light of day anymore, and the only time I use anything besides them to sharpen is when I use my Lansky to set/reset a new or damaged knife edge.

Robert
 
I recently picked up a 600 grit DMT steel plus a smooth steel hone, both used. I agree, the DMT is a great tool. I no longer use the Sharpmaker for kitchen knives, the 600 grit is better.
 
Your Techno should be XHP which should be easier to sharpen than 204P.

I would not use natural stones with these modern steels. I set my bevels and raise my bur with diamond stones and then move to ceramics to debur and finish my edges And that works great for me. You should be able to debur both of those steels (xhp and 204p) with the Spyderco brown rods. Those brown rods can load up fast so keep them clean.

I am neither young nor old but I am middle aged enough to have grown up in the days of simple steels and natural stones. I have had to adapt to the modern stuff as well. You obviously know how to sharpen so my guess is you just need modern tools. Good luck and we are always here to help.
 
midnight flyer said:
.... Get the rods and learn how to use them and it will be a game changer. You will be able to sharpen anything that come your way very easily. Then you will be able to carry any knife you might have a whim to carry, steel be damned! My old stones don't see the light of day anymore, and the only time I use anything besides them to sharpen is when I use my Lansky to set/reset a new or damaged knife edge.
Click to expand...
I use the rods on machetes and they work very well for this use. I still like GEC's 1095. But I notice I don't use them a lot any more for regular carry; that would go for the Case slippies from years ago as well. I tend to carry a 111mm SAK the most and lately the Steel Will Min Cutjack in M390. I haven't had to sharpen the Cutjack yet, but I suspect I will be using the very fine DMT bench stone on it. Tend to use something in the 600 grit for general sharpening. I also have a number of old stones (arkansas variety) that I haven't used in years. Most just take too long to sharpen for me and I go with diamonds now for the harder modern steels.
 
Two thoughts OP:
  • There's nothing wrong with making an informed steel choice, and selecting a good steel that is NOT a super steel (high carbide) and thus easier to sharpen. That doesn't make you "old" or anti-modern, that's just defining the right tool for the job, given your usage. 1095, other classic stainless steels, Sandvik (I like the 14c28n that Kershaw uses), VG10, 154, heck even Buck 420HC are all good. Lots of folks intentionally avoid the super steels, not because they are anti-technology, but simply because they want a steel that is faster and easier to sharpen without resorting to diamonds or more expensive sharpening gear. If you want to stick with a different steel type, just do it and don't worry about it!
  • If you want to stick with your ZT, I'd agree as others have said, get something in diamonds. Don't have to go overboard, for folders, a small diamond portable sharpener like some of those suggested, or a simple DMT 2-grit folding sharpener with Coarse/Fine would let you easily keep that thing sharp.
 
I am more in the "I don't really need the newer super steels" camp ... I think they have there place but I have found nothing I can't do with older steels that I can with new "super steels" ... yes the older steels may need sharpened more often but I can sharpen a couple knives with 1095 blades 3 or 4 times and have no more time invested then to sharpen one knife with super steel once.

I touch up whatever steel is on the knife I carry and use that day in the evening and a few minutes to touch up the blade it doesn't seem to take anymore time to do one steel over any other. It's only if I let a blade get dull and needing more attention when the difference in time spent sharpening comes into play for me.

As far as your mention of the burr on the newer steel when you sharpen ... one trick someone showed me that I've had good luck with is ... once you have the burr ... very lightly with just the weight of the knife ... draw the blade over a piece of wood ... it removes the burr without dulling the blade and it's ready to polish or strop ... and you aren't chasing the burr.
 
I like my simpler steels and touching them up quickly using oil stones. I have a couple of nice ZT knives in Elmax. For those I use diamonds. For thinner, higher hardness kitchen knives, I use water stones. You just need to match up the sharpening tools to the type/hardness of the steel.
 
Sometimes I want to be a traditionalist and sharpen my knife by stones which I myself have found in nature. Then the only steel option to attain a good result is carbon steel with hardness of about 58 HRC. Diamond or synthetic stones are far better, but sharpening with natural stones could be more pleasant job.
 
Use diamonds on the vanadium rich steels and just go the microbevel route for less frustration.
 
I do the same thing to remove the burr.
I just flip over a strop and draw, lightly, across the wood. Works every time.
Can’t remember where I learned that.
Joe

JJ_Colt45 said:
I am more in the "I don't really need the newer super steels" camp ... I think they have there place but I have found nothing I can't do with older steels that I can with new "super steel... yes the older steels may need sharpened more often but I can sharpen a couple knives with 1095 blades 3 or 4 times and have no more time invested then to sharpen one knife with super steel once.

I touch up whatever steel is on the knife I carry and use that day in the evening and a few minutes to touch up the blade it doesn't seem to take anymore time to do one steel over any other. It's only if I let a blade get dull and needing more attention when the difference in time spent sharpening comes into play for me.

As far as your mention of the burr on the newer steel when you sharpen ... one trick someone showed me that I've had good luck with is ... once you have the burr ... very lightly with just the weight of the knife ... draw the blade over a piece of wood ... it removes the burr without dulling the blade and it's ready to polish or strop ... and you aren't chasing the burr.
Click to expand...
 
Dmt keychains in red and green will keep you moving and are usually about $10 apiece
 
I'm not going to tell you to go back to 1095.
I'm 8 years older than you and grew up with the older traditional steels and natural stones.
When I bought that first D2 blade I ordered a set of diamond stones and have absolutely no regrets.

I adapted to the steel and now I spend much less time sharpening than than I used too.
Very light pressure on the diamonds and just let them do the work.

Don't let the blade get butter knife dull.
All you need are diamond stones, it's all about the right tool for the job.
 
farmboy said:
I was out in the garage trying to get that razor like hone on the ZT 0456 I just picked up from a forum member here, and something occurred to me.

The ZT is a knife I've been carrying daily, switching out with another knife every few days as the mood strikes. It a quality built knife with CTS 204P steel. It's a sheep's foot style blade. I also own a Spyderco Techno from the same steel, and have carried it for a few years.

The other knife is an Great Eastern Cutlery single bladed #53. It's also a quality built knife, but from some hard, high carbon steel, I assume 1095.

Here's the trick:
When the I notice the GEC starting to drag a little, I touch it up, and I'm good to go. It will stay sharp for weeks, I can get by with that for several months, and then I'll hand sharpen, raising the burr, break the burr with a high angle, and finish on a hard black stone. Simple. Easy. And it will stay sharp for weeks.

When I notice the 0456 (or Techno) I touch up, and we're pretty ok. Not perfect, but OK. After several months I'll hand sharpen.......and sharpen.....and raise a bur, and try to break it, but it just won't. So I'll strop, or hit it with the Sharpmaker, or spend even more time on the black stone. Half the time I get it back, half the time I don't.

For an older guy (58), it's frustrating. Technology brings us better things, we all assume. But in this case, I wonder. The CTS is good stuff, no question. And I know it will get sharp and stay sharp a long time. But when it starts to drag, it starts to turn to dread. What should take a few minutes can take a long time, usually with me setting it down to go think for a while.

I only cut with my knives, probably just like everyone else. Boxes, envelopes, apples, and sandwiches. I've carried a knife for 50 years. Just like my watch and my wallet, it's just a daily essential. Long before there was any "EDC" business.

Why does the new stuff require special techniques or tools? I've done my best here, but I don't see it adding value to my life. I don't get it.

Dammit. I just made an old guy post................
Click to expand...

A series of leather strops and some diamond pastes would do you a world of good I bet. You can generally bring an edge back with some stropping.
 
OK, here's what I've done:

I dug out some diamond rods for my Sharpmaker, back when I had a Gossman Tusker in A2. That was some hard stuff, and they helped me (slowly!) bring back a severely dulled blade.

I started with them with a few light pressure strokes on the flats, and I got some tooth out of them. I then repeated with some feather light strokes, then on to the ceramics, brown stick corners, then flats, white rod corners, then flats.

I think I'm bringing some life to it, but I still have some work to do. It's sharp; sharper than it was for damned sure. Certainly sharp enough for the day to day stuff. It's just not a true hair popper yet.

I dunno. Those types of mind blowing edges are fun for bragging, but in real life, they don't serve much purpose. They seem to break down pretty quick.

Truthfully, if I just let it be and go with it as it is, it's probably good enough to go, now.

I just added a few DMT items to my Christmas want list, btw.........thanks fellas.
 
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