I was happy to see an article (Rating the Top Factory Stainlesses)on the comparisons of a handful of steels used in production knives (Blade Magazine Sept 2000). I was however surprised at some of the results. Specifically, with both VG-10, ATS-34 and AUS-10 finishing in the bottom half of almost every catagory. With the overall averages finishing 8th, 9th and 10th respectively. I was bummed ATS-55 didn't get to compete. Was wondering thoughts on if in fact the "overall average" ment as much as the individual ranks by trait. I realize there are a lot of factors here, but am wondering if these "exotic/expensive" steels may be a tad over-rated? It does seem to be a informative chart to be able to gauge specific knives, and then see if the steel fits those jobs the knife will be facing. Opinions?
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Steel Poll/Latest Blade Magazine
- Thread starter SID
- Start date
SID,
When I read the article my impression was that Sal came just short of calling it a joke. (Sal, I apologize if I misread you.)
I believe that the article was certainly well intentioned but the approach seemed to lend itself to bias and distorted results.
I took the article with a grain of salt.
I believe that someone was quoted as saying that the only way to get accurate results would be to have identical blades made of each material and provide each blade with the Optimal Heat Treatment for that material and then test all the blades identically.
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AKTI Member No. A000370
Email: DouglasSctt@Netscape.net
When I read the article my impression was that Sal came just short of calling it a joke. (Sal, I apologize if I misread you.)
I believe that the article was certainly well intentioned but the approach seemed to lend itself to bias and distorted results.
I took the article with a grain of salt.
I believe that someone was quoted as saying that the only way to get accurate results would be to have identical blades made of each material and provide each blade with the Optimal Heat Treatment for that material and then test all the blades identically.
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AKTI Member No. A000370
Email: DouglasSctt@Netscape.net
Sal Glesser
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I don't think that it was a joke, sorry if I gave that impression. I believe that it was done with all good intentions. I expained to Steve, that IMO, it was more a gathering of opinions than actual fact. This too has it's own value.
Concepts like "Optimal heat treat" gets sticky, especially when the "optimal heat treat" is a trick that ABC company knows and DEF company doesn't.
"The same" edge angle may not be "optimal edge angle" for that steel.
I think you can see my drift. Steel testing is a difficult thing to do. I don't think that Blade was saying that they are testing, just gathering the opinions of all of the factories that make the knives that we enjoy and collect.
sal
Concepts like "Optimal heat treat" gets sticky, especially when the "optimal heat treat" is a trick that ABC company knows and DEF company doesn't.
"The same" edge angle may not be "optimal edge angle" for that steel.
I think you can see my drift. Steel testing is a difficult thing to do. I don't think that Blade was saying that they are testing, just gathering the opinions of all of the factories that make the knives that we enjoy and collect.
sal
Sal,
You were very clear. I translated
"...IMO, it was more a gathering of opinions than actual fact..."
into
"It is a joke to publish an article ranking steels based on opinion instead of facts."
The problem is that there are people who will read that article and believe that "Blade Magazine has Scientifically proven that VG-10, ATS-34 and AUS-10 are junk and that AUS-6 is the Best all around steel on the market" even though that is not what was written.
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AKTI Member No. A000370
Email: DouglasSctt@Netscape.net
You were very clear. I translated
"...IMO, it was more a gathering of opinions than actual fact..."
into
"It is a joke to publish an article ranking steels based on opinion instead of facts."
The problem is that there are people who will read that article and believe that "Blade Magazine has Scientifically proven that VG-10, ATS-34 and AUS-10 are junk and that AUS-6 is the Best all around steel on the market" even though that is not what was written.
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AKTI Member No. A000370
Email: DouglasSctt@Netscape.net
- Joined
- Apr 27, 1999
- Messages
- 6,117
When you rank the opinions of the factories rather than users I expect them to praise the steels they are using and downplay the alloys that they are not. The rankings would favor steels that are common, inexpensive to buy, and inexpensive to fabricate. I would ignore such a poll entirely.
I would expect unusual steels like ATS-55 (essentially Spyderco proprietarty), VG-10 (Spyderco and Fallkniven), and AUS-10 (primarily Junglee and Cold Steel) to be downrated because the other manufacturers don't use them. ATS-34 would get downrated because it is more expensive to use and yet is beginning to lose it's prestige value. It doesn't command enough premium to the manufacturers to add value to their bottom line.
User polls aren't much better since people tend to praise what they own and they own what the manufacturers sell.
I place much greater value on Bladeforums polls since our members often own a wide variety of knives that they can compare against a wider field of materials.
I would expect unusual steels like ATS-55 (essentially Spyderco proprietarty), VG-10 (Spyderco and Fallkniven), and AUS-10 (primarily Junglee and Cold Steel) to be downrated because the other manufacturers don't use them. ATS-34 would get downrated because it is more expensive to use and yet is beginning to lose it's prestige value. It doesn't command enough premium to the manufacturers to add value to their bottom line.
User polls aren't much better since people tend to praise what they own and they own what the manufacturers sell.
I place much greater value on Bladeforums polls since our members often own a wide variety of knives that they can compare against a wider field of materials.
Sal
When you say,
"optimal heat treat is a trick that ABC company knows, and DEF company doesn't"
are you saying for example when I purchase ATS-34 steel with brand X company it is in fact heat treated differently than Spyderco's ATS-34? Are there different grades of the same steel available for production knive company's, or do I get the same ATS-34 with every manufacturer?
I'm trying not to read too much into the poll, as I realize were dealing with an article that should have been a 3 or 4 part exhaustive search. Even Blade cautions using this poll as an "absolute barometer". Sal maybe you could shed some light on their "gathering of opinions", compared to "actual fact". The artical never explained how they got there results. Any ideas?
When you say,
"optimal heat treat is a trick that ABC company knows, and DEF company doesn't"
are you saying for example when I purchase ATS-34 steel with brand X company it is in fact heat treated differently than Spyderco's ATS-34? Are there different grades of the same steel available for production knive company's, or do I get the same ATS-34 with every manufacturer?
I'm trying not to read too much into the poll, as I realize were dealing with an article that should have been a 3 or 4 part exhaustive search. Even Blade cautions using this poll as an "absolute barometer". Sal maybe you could shed some light on their "gathering of opinions", compared to "actual fact". The artical never explained how they got there results. Any ideas?
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These were the overall rankings:
1st- 440A, BG-42 (tie)
3rd- 440C
4th- AUS-6
5th- AUS-8, 154CM (tie)
7th- CPM440V
8th- ATS-34
9th- VG-10
10th- AUS-10
11th- 420J2
12th- 420
Four traits were used to rank the steels: stain resistance, edge retention, ease of sharpening, and toughness.
Only five people were polled: Kim Breed of Blade, Rod Bremer of CRKT, Spencer Frazer of SOG, Ed Severson of Crucible Steel, and Sal Glesser.
I think that the article has some interesting information, but it should never have been published. The poll is horribly ill-conceived, and the article basically admits that. Editors shouldn't write articles.
1st- 440A, BG-42 (tie)
3rd- 440C
4th- AUS-6
5th- AUS-8, 154CM (tie)
7th- CPM440V
8th- ATS-34
9th- VG-10
10th- AUS-10
11th- 420J2
12th- 420
Four traits were used to rank the steels: stain resistance, edge retention, ease of sharpening, and toughness.
Only five people were polled: Kim Breed of Blade, Rod Bremer of CRKT, Spencer Frazer of SOG, Ed Severson of Crucible Steel, and Sal Glesser.
I think that the article has some interesting information, but it should never have been published. The poll is horribly ill-conceived, and the article basically admits that. Editors shouldn't write articles.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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- Messages
- 11,677
SID - It has been our experience in testing that the same steel, with the same edge geometry, (we resharpen) will get different results on edge retension (& sharpness) from different manufacturers. We believe that difference is in the heat treat. It may be a change in the process or that one of the companies might not be heat treating to EXACT spec.
AS far as "gathering of opinions" goes. We test with a CATRA machine. We can get a pretty good idea of differences in steel because we always use the same test. We have and do test many steels and have accumulated a fair data bank for comparison.
That's what we do in R & D (besides design knives & other things). When we test for corrosion reistance, we use a standard test on all blades. BTW Heat treat also makes a signicicant differencce in the corrosion resistance capability of steels. (eg: heat treated 440C runs at the top, anealed 440C runs at the bottom). Big difference.
I dont' think that many of the manufacturers have their own in house testing facility or bother to test steels other than the ones they are using. IT is assumed that the manufacturers will "know" more than regular ELU. Not always the case, right Joe?
sal
AS far as "gathering of opinions" goes. We test with a CATRA machine. We can get a pretty good idea of differences in steel because we always use the same test. We have and do test many steels and have accumulated a fair data bank for comparison.
That's what we do in R & D (besides design knives & other things). When we test for corrosion reistance, we use a standard test on all blades. BTW Heat treat also makes a signicicant differencce in the corrosion resistance capability of steels. (eg: heat treated 440C runs at the top, anealed 440C runs at the bottom). Big difference.
I dont' think that many of the manufacturers have their own in house testing facility or bother to test steels other than the ones they are using. IT is assumed that the manufacturers will "know" more than regular ELU. Not always the case, right Joe?
sal
Interesting that 440A and BG-42 should come out even, given that they are steels that typically enter the market at radically different price points. Probably this is because of the wide use of relatively cheap, easily machinable 440A by SOG et al., and the high prestige value of BG-42, the two factors canceling each other out. But I'm just speculating.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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The way the questionaire was done, We were asked to rate certain features with points. You are correct in that features like edge retention and ease of sharpening are contradictory and so they confuse the findings.
Of the companies contacted, none have used BG-42 in production, so there was no actual experience with BG-42. Spyderco is the only company that has experience with VG-10 and CPM steels in actual propduction.
sal
Of the companies contacted, none have used BG-42 in production, so there was no actual experience with BG-42. Spyderco is the only company that has experience with VG-10 and CPM steels in actual propduction.
sal