Steel-Talk: A few Basic Questions

[VorpelSword]

1. Is pattern welded Damascus superior?
Are some patterns better than others in terms of knife performance?
In what ways?

2. What makes some steel formulations better for forging than other steels?

 

[toker]

Today's Damascus is more about aesthetics than performance. If you want performance, there are dozens of steels that will outperform it. But then again most people aren't using their Damascus blades to baton wood.

 

[J. Doyle]

1. Is pattern welded Damascus superior?

Superior to what? Pattern welded steel, DONE PROPERLY, will be no better or no worse than the parent steels the smith combined originally.

Are some patterns better than others in terms of knife performance?

No, not to any discernible degree.

In what ways?

See above.

2. What makes some steel formulations better for forging than other steels?

Simple carbon steels with low to no alloying elements lend themselves well to forging. Alloys containing elements that aid in air hardening, such as high amounts of chromium (most stainless steels), typically aren't easily forged nor offer any viable reason to do so for most smiths.

As far as making pattern welded steels, it is wise to start with steels that are compatible in ways such as heat treat regimen as well as thermal properties (like expansion/contraction rates upon heating and cooling).

This is why the vast majority of pattern welded steel is made out of 15n20 combined with the 10xx series of steels.

 

[VorpelSword]

Thank you for that response.

Perhaps "superior" was not the right word. Aside from the visual esthetics, why would one create or use a pattern welded blade over a similar mono-metal blade?

 

[CVamberbonehead]

Thank you for that response.

Perhaps "superior" was not the right word. Aside from the visual esthetics, why would one create or use a pattern welded blade over a similar mono-metal blade?

Pretty much just visuals. Maybe a long time ago when steel wasn't as good, and wasn't made quite as consistently as today there was an advantage, but honestly I think that Damascus is well regarded simply because it is pretty and requires lots of handwork which when done by a good smith will result in a great product. The same smith could make just as good of a knife with regular steel though, and maybe better since there would less of a chance of issues with the welds that give hundreds of little potential failure points in the blade. The other possibility could be that the mix of different steels with different wear rates of the steels on the edge would give you a micro serration thing going on that would maybe keep a good working edge.
But really, it is just pretty.

 

[J. Doyle]

Thank you for that response.

Perhaps "superior" was not the right word. Aside from the visual esthetics, why would one create or use a pattern welded blade over a similar mono-metal blade?

I think that's mostly the reason in modern times....just looks and it offers a canvas for a smith to showcase some artistic and creative talent.

It doesn't add any special properties to the steel that the parent steels didn't already have. And also, if it's well made, it shouldn't be inferior to the parent steels either.

 

[VorpelSword]

Thank you. I have long thought that Damascus was mostly an esthetic thing, but never thought to ask those who would know.

However, I welcome any further thoughts pro and con.

 

[Just Tom.]

Maybe a long time ago when steel wasn't as good, and wasn't made quite as consistently as today there was an advantage

Don’t confuse modern-day pattern welded “Damascus” with the historic Damascus crucible steel.

Damascus steel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The patterns often found on the real thing were not the result of hammering together different materials. The source material is no longer produced and the exact methods used to do so have been lost to time (since around 1900).

 

[VorpelSword]

J-T:

Thank you for that. I do understand the differences. I read that Wikipedia article while locked down in 2020. Good info.

I was specifically asking about modern-day pattern welded steels. and the knives made from them.

So far, the consensus is that a well-made knife made from either pattern welded or homogeneous steel blanks can be considered equivalent in terms of performance.

 

[Just Tom.]

Of course I misread CVamberbonehead ’s comment - he was talking about pattern welding specifically and not implying that the Damascus of old was a combination of steels.