Steel Type

Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
11
Hi all,

I'm relatively new to blade smithing. A few years ago, before I did my homework on metallurgy and such I purchased a good sized plate of sheet steel that's just over 3/8" thick from the scrap section of a local metal supply store, thinking I could use it to make knives by stock removal. However, at the time I didn't think to ask what type of steel it is, and now I'm unsure if it's a higher carbon steel or a weld steel and if it will harden. Is there a way to determine what type of steel it is?

I did make a 6" outdoor knife out of it, but I'm not sure if it hardened. The blade seemed to skate a file better than the tang, but the file still slighly scratched the blade. When I hardened it, I quenched it in canola oil heated to about 130° F, and it etched a bubble-looking pattern into the parts of the blade. Not sure if that helps identify the metal or if I simply heated the blade too hot. Any insight would be appreciated.
 
There is no way to tell what the steel is unless you send a chunk off for testing. If it’s a good size plate like you said then it could be worth knowing. But my definition of good size is probably diffrent then yours. I see good size as 2ftx4ft or bigger. But honestly the chances of it being anything worth making a knife out of is rare especially considering it’s thickness and it being plate steel not bar stock. There are lots of steels out there that will harden to some extent but make really crappy knife steels. A bubbly surface of the steel after quenching is indicative of a low carbon steel. High carbon steels usaly shed the scale during the quench and are left with a nice gray martensite color.
 
Its only about $20 for a piece of steel 4' long from the New Jersey Steel Baron and you can get smaller pieces from AKS. I would recommend the 15n20 or 1084. Don't get 80CRV2 from NJSB unless you can Normalize it.
 
There is no way to tell what the steel is unless you send a chunk off for testing. If it’s a good size plate like you said then it could be worth knowing. But my definition of good size is probably diffrent then yours. I see good size as 2ftx4ft or bigger. But honestly the chances of it being anything worth making a knife out of is rare especially considering it’s thickness and it being plate steel not bar stock. There are lots of steels out there that will harden to some extent but make really crappy knife steels. A bubbly surface of the steel after quenching is indicative of a low carbon steel. High carbon steels usaly shed the scale during the quench and are left with a nice gray martensite color.
Thank you for your response, this is very informative. I may consider sending it in for testing, as the sheet actually happens to be about 2'x4'. In the future I'll definitely order bar stock high carbon steel for knives.
 
Its only about $20 for a piece of steel 4' long from the New Jersey Steel Baron and you can get smaller pieces from AKS. I would recommend the 15n20 or 1084. Don't get 80CRV2 from NJSB unless you can Normalize it.
Thanks for the info, I'll have to check it out!
 
Looks pretty close to mild steel to me.

Do a water quench test. I would thin out a piece of it out at least down to a quarter inch, then score in a line by cutting slightly into it with a hacksaw, heat it to about 1500F (or just a bit past non-magnetic) and quench straight in water, making sure to agitate it, then stick it in a vise with the scored line just above the jaws and hit it with a hammer. See how easily is snaps and then check the grain. That should tell ya pretty quickly if it's even hardenable or not. You can take a picture of the resulting grain or even video the break test and share it here :thumbsup:

~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Just some older videos of some knives I've made in the past)
 
Looks pretty close to mild steel to me.

Do a water quench test. I would thin out a piece of it out at least down to a quarter inch, then score in a line by cutting slightly into it with a hacksaw, heat it to about 1500F (or just a bit past non-magnetic) and quench straight in water, making sure to agitate it, then stick it in a vise with the scored line just above the jaws and hit it with a hammer. See how easily is snaps and then check the grain. That should tell ya pretty quickly if it's even hardenable or not. You can take a picture of the resulting grain or even video the break test and share it here :thumbsup:

~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Just some older videos of some knives I've made in the past)
Thank you for the idea, I'll have to try that. I'm going out of town so it might be a few days, but I'll definitely post the video when I get to it. When I made the knife I mentioned earlier in the thread, some decarburization occurred. I used a charcoal forge on this one and slightly overheated the blade when I hardened it. Could this have increased the carbon content of the blade? I'm definitely an amateur in my understanding of metallurgy but I've heard of situations where something similar happened.
 
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Sure no problem.

More than likely I would tend to guess that the blade would've lost carbon on its surface, maybe a few thousands or possibly bit more, depending on how long it was in the fire and how hot it was. Unless the blade is in a reducing atmosphere (where more fuel is burning than oxygen) within the charcoal forge, which takes some knowledge on how to properly adjust the charcoal pile and where to put the blade within it, it's more likely to lose carbon when exposed due to an oxygen rich (oxidizing) atmosphere rather than absorb any from the coal. It's possible it picked up some carbon, but it's more likely it lost some on the surface. Also, it is were to gain any cabon, unless it was held at the right temp in a reducing atmosphere for long enough, it would be a very thin carburized surface which would end up getting ground off when finish grinding and sanding the knife

I'm not that knowledgeable with coal or charcoal forges and it's been a long time since I last used one, but generally speaking when it comes to those who are just beginning to learn to forge and use the forge properly, more often than not the steel tends to be over-heated and for a good amount of time. I'm not saying this is the case with your blade, but with the condition of the surface of your steel on the first knife with the "bubbled" effect, it sounds like the steel may have been over-heated, because I remember that happening to my knives a good bit when I first started making and heat treating them.

I think with the right forge design, the right size and type of charcoal, the right amount of air blown in, and proper tending of the pile, charcoal can be an excellent fuel to forge and heat treat high carbon steel with, but it surely requires a decent amount of knowledge and practice in how to get the most benefit from it, as with most things.

I would suggest next time you heat treat a blade, keep the blower down to a minimum and bring the steel up to temp slowly and evenly. Use a muffle (a steel pipe large enough to fit the blade which is capped off on the far end) buried in the charcoal to help more evenly distribute the heat while heating the blade, and slowly move the blade back and forth to avoid heating up one part of the blade more than the rest. Once you begin to see a bit of red in the blade begin testing along the edge with a magnet fairly often to make sure you're not getting too hot. Once the entire edge reaches a non-magnetic state, continue heating just a little longer where the steel gets just a little bit brighter, and then take it out to quench, moving the blade either up an down from tip to butt (for a vertical quench tank), or up and down from edge to spine while in the oil (for a horizontal quench tank), which helps to break up any vapor barrier that forms around the hot steel and hinders the oil's ability to cool the steel. You can also put a piece of charcoal in the end up the pipe to help burn up any excess oxygen within it.

You can take a scrap piece of high carbon steel and roughly shape the bevels to the thickness you would leave it prior to hardening, and use that as a practice blade to begin to familiarize yourself with the process and with your forge. Practice bringing the blade up to non-magnetic and heating it evenly, and then after you feel more confident in doing that, you can even practice holding it at that temp for a couple of minutes by pulling the blade in and out of the forge/muffle.

When bringing it up to heat, it also helps to pull it out of the muffle/forge to let the heat in the blade equalize for somewhere around 5 to 10 seconds, so that the thicker sections (spine, ricasso and tang) soak up the heat from the thinner sections (edge and tip) which will help to avoid uneven heating and accidental over-heating of the edge & tip. The most important part to have evenly heated is the edge, and since the edge and the tip will come up to heat the fastest, keep a close eye to not let it get too hot which can happen quickly in a forge. If the tip or edge starts getting too hot too fast, just take it out of the forge to let the spine soak up the heat, and keep doing this until it gets to the point that the edge/bevel & tip area are heating up evenly to just past non-magnetic and then quench. Another thing you can do is heat up the tang first, so it draws less heat from the blade end and makes it easier to heat evenly. In the past and still every now and then, I've also used a small piece of kaowool to cover the tip while bring the blade up to heat to make make it less likely to over heat, then I'd brush it off when the temp is getting close to critical. Let me know if that all makes sense.


~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Just some older videos of some knives I've made in the past)
 
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Sure no problem.

More than likely I would tend to guess that the blade would've lost carbon on its surface, maybe a few thousands or possibly bit more, depending on how long it was in the fire and how hot it was. Unless the blade is in a reducing atmosphere (where more fuel is burning than oxygen) within the charcoal forge, which takes some knowledge on how to properly adjust the charcoal pile and where to put the blade within it, it's more likely to lose carbon when exposed due to an oxygen rich (oxidizing) atmosphere rather than absorb any from the coal. It's possible it picked up some carbon, but it's more likely it lost some on the surface. Also, it is were to gain any cabon, unless it was held at the right temp in a reducing atmosphere for long enough, it would be a very thin carburized surface which would end up getting ground off when finish grinding and sanding the knife

I'm not that knowledgeable with coal or charcoal forges and it's been a long time since I last used one, but generally speaking when it comes to those who are just beginning to learn to forge and use the forge properly, more often than not the steel tends to be over-heated and for a good amount of time. I'm not saying this is the case with your blade, but with the condition of the surface of your steel on the first knife with the "bubbled" effect, it sounds like the steel may have been over-heated, because I remember that happening to my knives a good bit when I first started making and heat treating them.

I think with the right forge design, the right size and type of charcoal, the right amount of air blown in, and proper tending of the pile, charcoal can be an excellent fuel to forge and heat treat high carbon steel with, but it surely requires a decent amount of knowledge and practice in how to get the most benefit from it, as with most things.

I would suggest next time you heat treat a blade, keep the blower down to a minimum and bring the steel up to temp slowly and evenly. Use a muffle (a steel pipe large enough to fit the blade which is capped off on the far end) buried in the charcoal to help more evenly distribute the heat while heating the blade, and slowly move the blade back and forth to avoid heating up one part of the blade more than the rest. Once you begin to see a bit of red in the blade begin testing along the edge with a magnet fairly often to make sure you're not getting too hot. Once the entire edge reaches a non-magnetic state, continue heating just a little longer where the steel gets just a little bit brighter, and then take it out to quench, moving the blade either up an down from tip to butt (for a vertical quench tank), or up and down from edge to spine while in the oil (for a horizontal quench tank), which helps to break up any vapor barrier that forms around the hot steel and hinders the oil's ability to cool the steel. You can also put a piece of charcoal in the end up the pipe to help burn up any excess oxygen within it.

You can take a scrap piece of high carbon steel and roughly shape the bevels to the thickness you would leave it prior to hardening, and use that as a practice blade to begin to familiarize yourself with the process and with your forge. Practice bringing the blade up to non-magnetic and heating it evenly, and then after you feel more confident in doing that, you can even practice holding it at that temp for a couple of minutes by pulling the blade in and out of the forge/muffle.

When bringing it up to heat, it also helps to pull it out of the muffle/forge to let the heat in the blade equalize for somewhere around 5 to 10 seconds, so that the thicker sections (spine, ricasso and tang) soak up the heat from the thinner sections (edge and tip) which will help to avoid uneven heating and accidental over-heating of the edge & tip. The most important part to have evenly heated is the edge, and since the edge and the tip will come up to heat the fastest, keep a close eye to not let it get too hot which can happen quickly in a forge. If the tip or edge starts getting too hot too fast, just take it out of the forge to let the spine soak up the heat, and keep doing this until it gets to the point that the edge/bevel area are heating up evenly to just past non-magnetic and then quench. Another thing you can do is heat up the tang first, so it draws less heat from the blade end and makes it easier to heat evenly. In the past and still even now and then, I've also used a small piece of kaowool to cover the tip while bring the blade up to heat to make make it less likely to over heat, then I brush it off when the temp is getting close to critical. Let me know if that all makes sense.


~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Just some older videos of some knives I've made in the past)
Yes it does! Thank you for the insight! I like the idea of using a pipe covered in charcoal, as before I was just sticking it in a small pedestal forge a welded together using a disk brake for the firepot, and trying to get an even heat was a little difficult due to the size and design of the forge. I was checking with the magnet when normalizing, but when heating for hardening I was simultaneously trying to heat the canola oil to 130°F and left the knife in for too long. As you said, more practice will definitely help. I actually plan to build a propane forge within the next month, as there are summer wood burning fire restrictions here in Arizona. I Also like the idea of using kaowool to cover the tip.
 
Looks pretty close to mild steel to me.

Do a water quench test. I would thin out a piece of it out at least down to a quarter inch, then score in a line by cutting slightly into it with a hacksaw, heat it to about 1500F (or just a bit past non-magnetic) and quench straight in water, making sure to agitate it, then stick it in a vise with the scored line just above the jaws and hit it with a hammer. See how easily is snaps and then check the grain. That should tell ya pretty quickly if it's even hardenable or not. You can take a picture of the resulting grain or even video the break test and share it here :thumbsup:

That sound good, but if the person testing doesn't have enough knowledge to know what the test shows it will likely give a false positive. Even mild steel will harden enough to snap if quenched in water, and should show fine grain. Try it with a piece of cheap welding steel and see for yourself.
A better test would be to quench it in 130 degree canola oil. That would separate mild from knife grade steel better.
 
I was mostly a bit "concerned" about it not fully hardening in canola oil at the 3/8th's thickness as I kept thinking about shallow hardening steel , which is basically all I use. That's also why I mentioned grinding it down to at least 1/4" to make give it more of a chance to through harden. Good point though :thumbsup:
 
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Yes it does! Thank you for the insight! I like the idea of using a pipe covered in charcoal, as before I was just sticking it in a small pedestal forge a welded together using a disk brake for the firepot, and trying to get an even heat was a little difficult due to the size and design of the forge. I was checking with the magnet when normalizing, but when heating for hardening I was simultaneously trying to heat the canola oil to 130°F and left the knife in for too long. As you said, more practice will definitely help. I actually plan to build a propane forge within the next month, as there are summer wood burning fire restrictions here in Arizona. I Also like the idea of using kaowool to cover the tip.


I should also add to make sure the pipe for the muffle you use isn't galvanized steel. Some black iron pipe from Lowes etc. works nicely, and you can even buy an cap to thread onto the end of it. You can also heat & squish to pipe so it's more of an oval shape to account for wider blades without having to use a pipe too large in diameter for the size of the forge. When you get your propane forge built you can also use a muffle in there as well to keep the blade out of the direct flame from the burner.


~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Just some older videos of some knives I've made in the past)
 
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