Steel Whores?!?

Mr.Clean

Mr.Clean

Joined
Sep 11, 2002
Messages
98
How much of a difference does the blade steel make to you when buying a knife. I just picked up a new carry combo: A Spyderco Delica with steel handles and AUS6 Steel for utility and a Spyderco Harpy with VG10 for Self Defense.
I can get the DelicaSCARY sharp with my strop and sharpmaker at 40 degrees. Last night I used it to clean all the veggies and cut the steaks for the fajitas we had for dinner last night and it was still just as sharp as when I stropped the edge. Today I used it to cut 40 or so plastic Zip-Ties organizing my camping gear so i could clean it all and stow it for the winter. Afterwards it still cleanly shaved hair, but the edge wasn't quite as "grabby" when I ran my thimb gently across the edge.

While the new super steels are great, and take a hell of an edge I pose these questions.

  • Barring military people who may need to use a knife as a rock hammer, How much dop you really abuse your blades that you would need a super steel?
  • How important is edge retention considering most quality sharpening systems are easily portable? You could easily take your sharpmaker or Gatco/Lansky system camping with you.( I keep a Sharpmaker in my truck)
  • What do we really use our EDCs for? Opening mail, replacing the crappy restaurant steak knives, Cardboard boxes... ypou get the idea. How many of us really go cut up anvils and cinder blocks with out knives
 
I don't chop rocks or use my knives as prybars, but I do choose my steel carefully. I'm an avid outdoorsman, so my fixed blades get used hard and frequently. I usually look for a steel that holds an edge for a long time, and is decently abrasion reistant. At the same time, the knife must be relatively easy to sharpen, which is often a mixed function of blade grind and steel type. BG-42 fits the bill well, and D2 even better when convex ground. I also like a number of carbon steels and alloys for outdoor use.

I never take my SharpMaker out hiking though. It's way too heavy for that stuff. Every ounce counts on long trips. I usually carry one of those little DMT folding sharpeners and some wet/dry paper for sharpening in the field.
 
I actually like ATS-55, and it's what most of my Spyderco knives are. It takes a hell of a lot of use, and sharpens up to shaving within 30minutes(on the 204 and a strop).

I have used my Calypso jr lt (in VG-10) for a year now, and sharpen it about 1/2 as often as ats-55, and love it... it's probably the best steel out there(so far...). sharpens easily, and takes a long time to get dull.

I've only had 3 months using 440V, and though it was a pain to sharpen(I let it get below shaving), it takes a nice edge and holds it.

I also own and use 2 of the minor steels.... My Spydercard in 8A, and my Q in 440C. Both shave, and after a week of use sharpen up in about 10-15minutes(with the double stuff stone).

I've only sharpened one knife on the 204 in the last 6 months. My Spydie Military, only to hold that 30 edge, don't feel like trying to reprofle this sucker.


Most people figure "newer is better", but ats-55, ats-34, Aus 6/8/10, and 440C have thier place in daily use.
 
I remember a time when 440A was considered a very good steel. Cold Steel used to tout in their ads, "Blade is made of 440A steel!" and they sold -- at the time -- at a premium. Now, it's like you couldn't give 440A away to a knife nut.

Why? Is it because 440A couldn't cut butter, or has toxins that release? No. It's still a good cutlery steel relatively speaking; certainly better than anything you'll find in a cheap, $10 dime store knife. It's just that's there are more durable and desireable steels around.

I think ATS-34 is heading in that direction now too. It's no longer perceived as an exotic steel. It's almost a minimum standard for good production folders. Customs are different since better heat treating makes a huge difference.

That's why I found that thread someone started about "Am I strange for liking softer steels?" refreshing.
 
Do we really need a super high RC exotic steel for most of our daily needs? No. Sure, most of us own at least one knife that falls in this category. Knives are our thing (or at least the one that brings us here).
Another thing...Do you really need a knife that big? How many times have you heard that one? Truth is, most of us carry more knife (knives) than we really need. It's all just a matter of personal preference.
Sure, I look forward to the latest blade steel as much as anyone. But when it comes down to any real cutting jobs I find myself reaching for those tried and true performers. Some of them wear "exotic" steel, others don't. What really matters is the design and execution of bringing that design together. Blade grind, heat treat, and overall construction are the things that great knives are made of.

Paul
 
I have tried a variety of steels, including some "exotic" ones like BG42 and CPMwhatever and my favorites are still 1095, O-1 and 440C. They are simple and cheap, and I have found them to work just as well for me as other more elite steels. Maybe if I were interested in having some sort of ultra tough "end of the world" knife I would have it made of only the best, but for everything else I do (including some heavy usage with construction and automotive projects) I find lesser steels to work just great.

Among other reasong, I like 1095 and O-1 becuase of their simplicity. Basicly just Iron and Carbon with maybe a few traces of other compounds. These steels take a virtually surgical edge, hold it for a long time, and won't rust if you take moderate care of them.

440C used to be the top of the heap for stainless, but now many people will turn their nose up at it in favor of newer and more hyped steels, and I really can't see why. It doesn't rust, it gets sharp quick, and it holds that edge rather well. What more could you want?

Some people complain that they would love a certain knife "if only it wasn't made out of 440 or AUS or plain carbon steel". I am or the opposite opinion. There are lots of great designs that are only available with premium steels which command a premium price. If they were available with a simpler steel I would be much more willing to buy them. Its not that I am not willing to pay a lot of money for a quality knife, I just am not willing to pay extra for a feature that is relatively meaningless to me.
 
this may sound typical but I found myself unhappy 440c probably because I have had m2 and ats-34 and 154cm and vg-10. I guess I have been spoiled but it is worth it to me to not have to sharpen every other use. Plus I find the fact that I'm less able to break the blade make me more pron to use it.
 
I have to say that I've bought knives that have the various super steels, just because I was interested in them. I'm not sure I've really seen the benefits of M2 over my AUS 6 SS Delica, but that's okay. Its not that I am some kind of weekend commando, its just that I like to understand things. BG42 was a really nice steel, and I really love the Buck 112 that I have in BG, but I don't really carry it that often. I don't even carry my Lum that often, even though it is probably one of the best knives I've ever had. Heck, I only carry my Chinook occasionally. I guess I've come to the same conclusion as Mental patient. I like my Delica. Great knife, great ergos (for me anyway), and I don't have to baby the thing and worry about rusting like on my super-steel knives. Just my thing, I guess.
 
I have a few knives in AUS6. With a good heat treatment, they take a wicked edge easily, and are very easy to sharpen. But, they require sharpening on a more regular basis than other knives with "better" steel.

Usually, that isn't a big problem. Sometimes, it is. Dull knives are dangerous. I don't always have time to sharpen, and unlike many on BF, I only usually carry one knife at a time.

AUS 6 is not bad. In fact, I would rate it as "acceptable". But, for the difference in price between it and a "higher" steel, I'd go for the better steel every time. AUS 8 is NOT that much more expensive.

I like to compare it to cars; Say you have the option of getting power windows/locks/mirrors, leather, and all the "luxury" options for just a few dollar more. Is it worth getting? The vehicle without the options will get you from point A to point B.

Some people want all the options, others don't. If you drive a whole lot, those options start to look mighty appealing. If you drive 1000 miles a year, you might be better off spending your money on other things.

-- Rob
 
The steel used is only one factor I consider when buying knives. Also use blade shape, thickness, length, handle, and guard. One of my favorite knives is of 440A. It just doesn't remain sharp as long as some others might.
 
The most important aspects of a blade to me are the steel, the grind and the heat treatment. Once those are right then things like edge and blade geometry and handle material and comfort are the next things I look at.

Do we need super steels, yes and no. We could do anything we need to do with a knife made from your everyday steels. These new steels are not really required for doing these jobs. They will do them very well, but so with the steels of old. What I think they are needed for is to show potential customers that the knife industry is moving forward and always looking for ways to improve their products. These new steels are great marketing tools as are all the new locking systems that appear regularly now. Companies and makers are always looking for an edge to help with sales and these new steels and locking systems provide that edge. At least until the other guys catch up. Then it is back to the drawing board. It does seem that a large percentage of the buying public must have the latest and greatest. That is who these things are aimed at. They are also accompanied by huge amounts of hype.

This may seem like a cynical view of the way things work, but in reality I have nothing against the new steels. Some of them are great. I consider CPM3V to be a great steel and also think that S30V is excellent. In some ways they are better than their predecessors, in many ways they are not and in some ways they are not as good.

It all comes down to one thing, purchase knives made from the steels you like. If you have tried them and they work fine for you, then that is all that matters. There is nothing wrong with the old steels and there is nothing wrong with the new ones either. Well, maybe there is one thing that is wrong with the new steels, they almost always tend to cost a lot more (S30V is actually quite reasonably priced).

Edited for spelling
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
These new steels are great marketing tools as are all the new locking systems that appear regularly now. Companies and makers are always looking for an edge to help with sales and these new steels and locking systems provide that edge. [/COLOR]
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This is so true. If you look at a sales brochure from most knife manufacturers, they are more prone to use the steels (ATS-34, CPM440V,...) in their higher end knives as a selling point.

Whether one really needs a high-grade steel from a functional perspective differs from person to person. Some guys at this forum use their knives day in and day out and want the most durable knife around. While others may carry it for self-defense (or odd utility use) in which case let's hope they rarely ever have to use it. Therefore, some people require high-grade steels, while others -- which I count myself as -- merely WANT it for the sake of having it.

I consider a lot of these production knife steels as trade-offs. AUS-6 and 440A are easy to sharpen but don't last as long, whereas harder steels like CPM440V and the tool steels last longer but take longer and more skill to sharpen. It would be nice if there were production knife steels which had a softer inner core (so it could be sharpened easier) with an outer core with higher tensile strength; much like the way ancient samurai swords were forged. Of course this would cause the prices of production knives to skyrocket.
 
My beater right now is a Benchmade 710 in M2. I'm renovating my new house, and it really takes a beating on the weekends, indoors and outdoors. I use my utility knife (Stanley, with thin utility/razor blades, that kind) for things like drywall patch work, but the 710 is pressed into service while painting the exterior (scraping and smoothing when the scraper is on the ground and I'm on 2nd story of extension ladder), cutting open boxes, prying mildly, whittling off old paint blobs, cutting up carpeting, etc.

So far, no chipping, but the edge holding is only pretty good to very good (carpet, wood shaving), not what I'd call superduper. Edge rolling rather than outright dulling is the usual modus, 25 degree angle of sharpening (scraping is a bitch). Hesistant to reprofile to 30 deg but probably should. It get's sharpened about every other week, steeled to straighten edge when I think about it in the kitchen. The M2 will show light orange iron oxide type rust, for sure, if you use it hard all day. I'm always amazed people say the get hot and sweaty and their M2 knives don't show the rust. Can't be.

I know from beating around on other knives that ATS-34 would not have held up quite as well (chipping), and certainly AUS-6 and AUS-8, 420 and 440's would have pissed me off far worse by now for sure in edge holding and rolling arena (the AUS and 420 steels don't show up in the Rc60-61 range).

440V is fine for cutting boxes and rope and carpet since it's abrasion resistant, but the 440V I have (Spyderco) is soft and would roll badly for my beater use. All my custom 420V stuff is too nice to use in beater mode, just to show that I do have my fancy/snobbery side as well (e.g. a JW Smith folder w/ ironwood that is a daily carry to white collar work).
 
Originally posted by rdangerer

So far, no chipping, but the edge holding is only pretty good to very good (carpet, wood shaving), not what I'd call superduper. Edge rolling rather than outright dulling is the usual modus, 25 degree angle of sharpening (scraping is a bitch). Hesistant to reprofile to 30 deg but probably should. It get's sharpened about every other week, steeled to straighten edge when I think about it in the kitchen. The M2 will show light orange iron oxide type rust, for sure, if you use it hard all day. I'm always amazed people say the get hot and sweaty and their M2 knives don't show the rust. Can't be.

I know from beating around on other knives that ATS-34 would not have held up quite as well (chipping), and certainly AUS-6 and AUS-8, 420 and 440's would have pissed me off far worse by now for sure in edge holding and rolling arena (the AUS and 420 steels don't show up in the Rc60-61 range).
Click to expand...


I really appriciate your full disclosure there I've been between M2 and D2 for a while and this will help! thanks!

I think this is a great example of what I said earlier.
 
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