Steel

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redman2006

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Nov 6, 2012
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As I move into higher end knives with dizzying numbers of exotic steel choices, I find myself more and more confused. I am not a metallurgist, nor am I a collector. Every one of my knives gets dropped in a pocket and used. Within hours of receiving my Spyderco Southard yesterday, I was in the garden cutting cabbages for my wife, cutting hay strings, and all the other Saturday chores on a small "farm".

What I want to find is a chart, if such a thing exists, for the metallurgically stupid. ie, how does it hold up under daily use and can the average guy with an Arkansas stone and a strop keep it going? Also, will it rust instantly in our humidity when combined with a little dirt, maure, sweat, and whatever else may get on it?

Can anyone point me somewhere that simplifies this to my level of stupid?

Oh, I do intend to get a nice sharpening system, but for now, it is a bench stone and a homemade strop.
 
I dont know if there's a universal chart out there, but from what I gather, you should be more than happy with 154cm, s30v, s35vn, or if you want to spend a little more, m390/20cv. All of these have great corrosion resistance and edge retention, and are fairly easy to maintain, save m390. Im sure you'll here much of the same from most members here. I use an app on my phone called "Knife steel composition" that seems to have information on every steel known, along with HRC, and other helpful stats. You should check it out! :)
 
Go to google, type in best knife steel. There is a web site called Knife Informer, they discuss several different types of stainless and carbon steel. They have also developed charts that compare different steels in terms of edge retention, ease of sharpening, wear resistance, etc. I'm not sure how accurate they are, but an interesting read.
 
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php

there are also generic charts on Google. they are not perfect but show general idea.

basically there are many different steel types all based off of one type or another with different elements added or removed from one another. of those compositions there are different ways to manufacturing them. for instance there is powdered, cast, ingot. then different generation and other processes to make the steel more clean.

in any case you have budget steel (8cr), midrange steel (vg10, 154cm), higher end steel(m390) and then grail steel(maxamet, 10v etc).

some steel is carbon steel like 1095 some are stainless vg10. stainless just means it resistance to rust, but nothing is rust proof. lcn200n and h1 are very resistant to rust but with the right conditions and time they will rust.

some steel is high in toughness making for good choppers, others good for wear resistance and others good for edge retention (maxamet).
 
Any steel used for knives is a good steel for knives. There is no one single best steel for any knife, any job, or any conditions. If you're worried about rust, get a stainless blade. If you care for your tools properly, carbon steels are generally easier to get sharp, often take a sharper edge, and are easier to re-sharpen when the time comes. I prefer carbon steels for hard-use fixed blades, stainless for folders or kitchen knives, but these are generalities that may not apply to you. Steel is usually the last thing to worry about with any given blade, edge geometry and heat-treat are much more important. Your Spyderco is a good knife, will last for years(unless you lose it), and will be a good choice for most any general cutting chores.
 
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I suggest you do a little research and try to learn the different aspects of what makes these steels special. Once you get the hang of it you'll be much more informed. I'm not a metallurgist, but I can read a steel chart and understand how the steel should preform under day to day circumstances.
 
I guess part of my issue is how much real world difference will you see between x and y. Yes, on the chart one is better than another, but is it really significant? Or how much harder is y over x to sharpen. Yes, the chart says harder, but does that mean next to impossible without special equipment or just that it take 5 extra strokes?

Then some of the charts I have found rank them differently than others I found.

For example, maxamet , some say impossible to sharpen, others say just slightly more difficult than steels I currently have and sharpen.
 
I generally use S35vn, M4, 52100, or Maxamet.
The only gap that I want to cover in my rotation is a Very highly stain resistant alloy/knife. Due to this I am waiting for the 2017 Spyderco lineup in LC200N, unless I cam find a used Spyderco Tusk.

I use DMT, SiC, or Ceramic and I don't have an issue with sharpening Any of the steels listed above. Some do take a bit longer if I let them dull too much, but nothing ridiculous.

In all honesty, I find that the low end, less wear resistant and softer HRC alloys tend to keep a more stubborn burr over my High HRC alloys (64hrc+ Maxamet, 52100, W2) and slightly more tedious to maintain. This being the case, I have drifted away from most lower alloys.
 
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redman2006 said:
I guess part of my issue is how much real world difference will you see between x and y. Yes, on the chart one is better than another, but is it really significant? Or how much harder is y over x to sharpen. Yes, the chart says harder, but does that mean next to impossible without special equipment or just that it take 5 extra strokes?

Then some of the charts I have found rank them differently than others I found.

For example, maxamet , some say impossible to sharpen, others say just slightly more difficult than steels I currently have and sharpen.
Click to expand...

How easy/hard steel can be to sharpen is suggestive. Some people say S30V is crazy hard to sharpen, but I can touch up the edge on an Arkansas stone without much trouble.

If you're looking for information like that then your best bet is to browse this forum or just google what steel your interested in and read through other people's experiences with it. Now it's not all going to give you the same answer, obviously, but you'll get a good enough idea where you can make a decision.

People have very refined preferences when it comes to what steel they like to use for their knives, so while one guy loves M4 because it keeps an edge forever, another guy will say it's too prone to rust for his liking. Both are true so then you just need to figure out what you like and if those properties are what you'd want in a blade.
 
How about this...

OP:
What state do you live in?
What do you do with your knives?
What is the harshest thing you would expect your edge to survive?
What do you have to sharpen knives with?
Are you normal, sweaty or a less than sweaty type of guy?

Some folks will have corrosive enough sweat to cause M4, 3v or Cruwear to spot in one day of carry/work in the summer heat. Personally, I am a sweaty type of guy, but thankfully I haven't had my 1095 get spotty from sweat, let alone my M4, Cruwear or Maxamet.
 
Georgia, daily work not too sweaty, outdoor at night and weekends, sweat like a pig either working around the farm or backpacking, or....who knows.

I used to carry an izula in my pocket. It did get tiny spots of rus on the edge without the coating.

What do I expect my edge to survive? Wow, I expect it to dull, but when I have to cut hoses for the tractor, trim wire ties, strip a wire, cut hay strings, cut leather for saddle repairs, harvest in the garden, or open packages at work, I do not want to have to sharpen at the end of every day, or even every week necessarily.

I have blades in elmax, s30v and a few others. Really, so far the elmax was the most difficult. Even that was not bad once I got the feel for it.
 
Unfortunately, you would likely be best served by a Custom...
Furthermore, some of the best alloys for your intended uses would both be through Corothers Performance Knives on here...
His Delta 3v, or his Optimized D2 would work well for you.

If you an manage to find one, Survive Knives also has a "Delta 3v", and they use it in their 3" and 4" bladed knives iirc.

That being said, regular, run of the mill D2 should also work well.
I have used a framing hammer on the back of a Becker BK24 (D2) to shape split rail fencing (Black Locust) and it was fine afterwards for the smaller detail work needed later in the day (feather sticks and such). That being said, I had to repair the edge slightly the next day on the Becker/Kabar stock D2.

Beyond basic D2/3V, you have a few options.

Busse has INFI and SR101, INFI is tougher and more stain resistant, but SR101 will hold an edge longer nominally.

CPK has an EDC and a Field Knife in Delta 3V ("D3V"), and an EDC in Optimized D2 in addition to their D3V. Their alloys are similar in design to Busse's offerings in that D3V will be tougher, but OPD2 Wil hold a working edge slightly longer.

I honestly think that you would be served best with a CPK EDC in D3V (Alphabet soup, I know)... You may drop just north of $200 on one, but it will last you a lifetime. If you decide you don't like it, you can sell it for near what you paid...
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/carothers-performance-knives.929/

Don't forget that the old adage still holds true, Buy once, Cry once...
 
Generally speaking, The more alloy the longer it cuts, at a cost to the toughness and ease of sharpening.

The alloying element that contributes the most to this is Vanadium.

So look for that on the charts to get you started.

The higher the Vanadium the longer it will cut.

Again, huge generalization but that gets you started done the rabbit hole.

Not the end all be all. Vanadium doesn't make the ultimate steel.

There are always compromises

So just because the Vanadium is high doesn't mean it's going to be the best.

Lots and lots of details.

In the end,
Your looking for the right combinations of geometry, heat treatment then steel for the given use.

If you only looking at the steel you might not be getting what you want.

Just have to know what you like, durability or precision or ease of sharpening or endurance.

Find the best compromises
 
Thanks for all the help guys. Lots more to read, and some of it looks more practical than what I found before.

As far as customs, I don't know why, but a fixed blade custom is ok, but a folder is not. For some reason, spending the money on a folder custom goes against the grain. Not sure why. It makes no sense whatsoever.
 
redman2006 said:
...can the average guy with an Arkansas stone and a strop keep it going?
Click to expand...
The blade of the Southard is of CTS 204P. Your best bet for ease of maintenance is the use of faster cutting silicon carbide stones such as the Crystalon followed up with higher grit diamond or ceramics. Or go straight diamond and/or ceramic. India stones are usually of aluminum oxide, typical Arkansas are even softer. Neither will be able to handle the high carbide content of 204P effectively.
 
Remember that while a crystalon stone is inexpensive, usually under $15, they are oil stones and the slurry generated from use will aid sharpening.
- Just a few drops of mineral oil will be enough, and as it soaks in or gets too thick of a mud, a few more will work nicely.

Once it starts to dish, or gets loaded, a coarse or very coarse diamond stone can lap it down quickly, and will leave the best finish. Worst case scenario, grab a 3 foot level and check for a flat spot of concrete and make a few figure eights with the stone to lap it down. This will work, but it can leave a bit to wanting, especially if you need to do it regularly.
 
Lots of great info. I appreciate you helping without condensation. Too many times I see peoe treated like idiots on a forum. Not typically here. Thank you.
 
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