Stick work question: angled or flat?

E

Edmund Rowe

Joined
Feb 20, 1999
Messages
31
I was doing some stick work recently and a technique question came up:

I was doing more of what I learned from the Frank Ortega seminar I took last July, which IIRC emphasized nearly level stick orientation for the head strikes (1 and 2) and the midline strikes (3 and 4). The "belly poke" (5) is level by necessity while the 6th and 7th lowline strikes are angled by default. Another way of putting this, my 1, 2, 3, and 4 strikes are palm up and palm down creating the nearly level stick orientation.

OK, my buddies complained about me hitting their knuckles on stick on stick drills where we mirror each other and make stick contact in repeating "rhythm" for lack of a better term.

My buddies do more angled stick work where the stick does less reach but more blocking in addition to the strike as the stick describes its arc. They said my level stick orientation doesn't block nearly as well any incidental incoming strikes.

Any comments here on stick orientation?
I'm a raw newbie as far as FMA I admit. It appears the stick-on-stick drills have to be angled by default.

Edmund

[This message has been edited by Edmund Rowe (edited 02-08-2000).]
 
Edmund,

Treat your stick as if it were a bladed weapon. The "blade" of the stick would be indexed where your knuckles are. Treat your stick as a bolo/knife, so everytime you strike your opponent or target, you strike with the "bladed" part of your stick. This will help with your angles of attack and blocks. This will especially come into play when you transition from stick-training to blade-training. For instance, say if you're using training blades and you execute a sumbrada or pluma for an overhead block. You'd realize the importance of angles because you'd know to block with the side of your blade and not the blade itself. Hope that helps.

Adrian

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"No matter how deadly you may be, you must contain your art within the sphere of good motives against a background of peaceful intentions."
G.M. Ramiro U. Estalilla
 
Edmund,

Cutting on a diagonal is a way to counter the horizontal strike, so if you're accidentally hitting their hands then I suspect it's because of they way they strike.

We are taught to strike/cut by pulling the hand through and keeping it close to the body. In doing so, your hand becomes much harder to hit. We try to avoid reaching when we strike/cut because that's what puts your hand out there to get hit. If you need to reach out to hit them, then you need to get closer.

To qualify my comments, I'll reitterate that our style is definitely a corto style. Since Guro Ortega's system was derived from Pekiti-tirsia (as was ours), our methods should carry over to what you're learning from him.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton.

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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."




[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 02-08-2000).]
 
Edmund,

The trajectory of 1,2,3,4 may seem completely horizontal but they are slightly angled. Not to the point where you would be striking in a V but there is a very slight downward trajecory. If you're striking 3 or 4 to the elbows you don't hit it coming horizontal you stike downward on it a little for maximum damage.

As to when you hit your partner's fingers he could be hitting with the wrong part of the stick. When I first started training with Guro Frank and practiced in mediocorto, my knuckles would get killed. It was because I did not suck the stick in and was hitting with the part of the stick closest to my hand when I should have been hitting with the middle or even tip of the stick for maximum power.

Jason
 
I think everyone on this thread has definitely done a great job addressing the question that "EdZilla" has posed.

For those who don't know Ed personally that's one of his nick names. Anyway......

The 1,2,3,4 strikes are originally taught horizontally(level) and somewhat exaggerated or slightly extended so that the student may focus on the trajectory of the strike, the target area, and the proper form when excecuting these maneuvers. Once that has been estabished, the student is then shown how to flow from strike to strike with the use of elipses or figure 8's. In order to properly flow from strike to strike or slash to slash it is necessary to angulate the flow of movement of the stick from it's original starting point.

This develops the ability to perform short directional changes with the weapon hand for multiples slash/thrust techniques. It also fosters the skill of pulling or tucking in your weapon hand to prevent punishment of your nuckles after making contact or worse case scenario, a failed attempt.

Essentially, Ed you want to strike or slash at a slight angle because by doing so it is harder for your opponent to block or intercept the incoming strike. In time the angle of your strikes and blocks will almost be mirror images of each other.

For your friends that are getting hit on their nuckles....they shouldn't be, or they should make the necessary adjustments to prevent it from continually occuring by positioning their wrist of pulling in immediately after making contact.

Sorry about the long post....

Guro Jon Agtarap
American Kali Systems
Tirada-Tirsia
 
Jon,

How are you? Nice to see you here!
smile.gif


sing

AKTI #A000356

 
Sing,
Everything's pretty good. I just haven't had the time to post but I'll make an effort to be here as often as possible. Hi Ed, Fenris and fellow forumites....
smile.gif


JohnA
 
Good posts to some good questions.
From everything I have seen and researched thus far here is the best way I can address your question.
First, there are so many different STYLES mutated from the FMA's. Having been there, and studying at Innosanto's for a number of years I can easily see how and why there are variations, Guro Dan teaches any number of 26 different styles at his Academy. Incl.
Lemeco, La Coste, Giron, Villibraile etc. to name a few. Then there is Doce Pares, then
Cannette, Eskrido etc. et al. They all have viable reasons or rational principles behind their concepts. Doce Pares has some real interesting scoops that others do not have that allow you to redirect and Destroy on the way out. Other patterns all deal w/ principles of attacks or counters that are almost seemingly INFINITE.
From what I have witnessed in the Phillipines in actual Combat, Tournaments
incl. Dog Brothers and personal fights and sparring it's always the participant w/ the BEST attributes, speed, shock, surprise, will to win, focus, Death energy etc. that wins or prevails. Sounds familar does'nt it ?It's all GOOD ! IMHO
biggrin.gif



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"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."

 
ed, as i understand from my teachings in pekiti tersia...angles beat all other directions....
 
Edmund: You don't hit each others hands with your opponent or sparring partner if you practice well. Is your Arnis the same with the modern Arnis 12 strikes?

If the same, then - there will be a good or rythmic flow of exchanging strikes.

Take for instance, your sparring mate knows well the sequence of the 12 strikes. I mean both of you will follow the numbering of the 12 strikes and you will strike one another starting from the 1st to the 12th number. Of course if you hit each other on the same point and the sticks will both meet before impact, then there is flow.

Both of you should concentrate in striking or blocking each sticks at the center of your sticks or considered the center blade of a bolo (think that no one will block a bolo on the tip or the butt. By this way there is no accidental in striking one's hand. This is the importance of not deviating from the original sequence of 12 strikes or any of your Arnis style, so that if you spar there is always a corresponding counter to every strikes for each one and in that way both sticks will meet.

Hope this help.


 
By the way, your stick position must always pointing angled down when blocking an incoming strikes with the support of your left open palm edge pointing upward too below your stick covering up to your elbow.

This will give the analysis that if your striker is stronger, his stick force will be deflected not that you received all the impact of the force from the opponent. I haven't seen a professional Arnis fighter that block an incoming stick with a flat position. There is always a degree of angle.

Thanks
 
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