Stock Removal from Pre-Hardened Damascus Billet???

C

Cushing H.

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Jun 3, 2019
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Hello All - I am looking at various sources of damascus billets for several projects I have planned, and am seeing some of them indicating the billett comes pre-hardened (a number of domestic sources indicate an annealed state - but my question is on those indicating a hardened state). WHY would any billet intended for stock removal process be sold hardened, when to work it you would just have to anneal it anyway? Am I missing something? (I know basically nothing about the forging process - do the billets naturally leave the forging process in a hardened state?)

(FWIW - yes I am new to the forum, and am not really practiced at bladesmithing ... and so I know many, many of you will tell me "dont go there ... practice on something cheap and easier :) " However, I have been interested in and studying the processes of knifemaking since 1977 - just have not had time until now to indulge the interest. Also, I am a chemical engineer with not insignificant metallurgy background - not the same as the practical experience you all have :) but it does not hurt... Mostly, I have made a life out of "jumping in to the deep end" and going right for what I really want ... and it has served me well. :) Anyway ... I am sure I will have many more questions, but if you could help me with this initial one I would greatly appreciate it!)
 
Hardened steel can be ground- you just have to do it carefully-so as to not affect the heat treatment.
 
Some of the hardened Damascus could be end grain like basketweave and not suitable for forging. So they provide it hardened.
 
Grinding hardened steel seems pretty common for thinner knives. I've been doing it for my 2-3mm (~1/8") kitchen knives
How thick is the billet? I wouldn't want to be grinding down a 10mm hardened bar.
 
Most Chinese knife makers start with pre-hardened bars, mono and damascus. They do all machining or drilling and grinding in the hardened state. This allows them to make a knife without having to stop and send the blade out for heat treating. I think this is smart, of course care should be taken to prevent heat damage.

Hoss
 
It all depends on your equipment. If you have a water cooled belt grinder, there isn't much reason to grind un-hardened steel.

With a regular grinder you have to grind slowly and dunk in water almost every pass. Any overheating of the edge and the temper may be ruined.

With lesser equipment like files, sandpaper an angle grinder, etc. you will have a lot of problem with hardened baillets.

All that said, un-hardened stock is far simpler for the beginner. It costs a very small amount to sent the finished blade to someone like JT and get a first rate hardening including a hardness test.
 
Thank you for the responses and thoughts. I am most interested in kitchen knives (I cook also - so matching the knife to the job is my main focus) .. so the mention of grinding hardened billets for kitchen knives (2-3mm) is interesting. That said, I would never previously have considered grinding and drilling in the hardened state. As Stacy said, you need to cool VERY frequently - you spend all this energy on the right steel for the project, and then you go and risk changing/ruining it????. I would have said "it is way, way too putzy versus working in the annealed state then hardening". Myself, I am likely most interested in the very hard steels and the heat treating processes that go along with that (the engineer in me coming out:) ) - working in the hardened state would be... interesting. In my searches I have not run across JT - thank you! It will take a little while to get my furnace in to place and I have a smallish project I want to execute for my wife and it looks like he has the services I need for that project.

I will have a later question about Evenheat ovens ... but that is a later discussion. Thank you all again!
 
I make mostly kitchen knives in 2mm thickness, all of them are grinded hardened. Cleavers (4mm) I do a pre bevel but then finish also after heat treatment.
Heat treating flat stock is far simpler because you can press it flat while it's still hot, BIG ADVANTAGE!


Pablo
 
Also, getting thin damascus billets is difficult.
If you are making kitchen blades, I suggest you look at Dictums steels. They have them with several core steels and with various suminagashi sides. They also have good stainless damascus.
The alternative to san-mai is pricy - Damasteel. It makes great kitchen blades, but is costly.

This is my favorite suminagashi san-mai steel. It will take a fantastic edge and looks stunning.
https://www.dictum.com/en/steel-cca/japanese-multi-layered-steel-suminagashi-719610
They also sell blanks that are either almost ready to handle, or profiled only blanks.
https://www.dictum.com/en/for-japan.../damascus-blade-15-layers-gyuto-180-mm-719595

For a fantastic ( and expensive) usuba or santoku, this damasteel is really the tops.
https://www.dictum.com/en/steel-cca/damasteel-ds93x-hugin-damascus-steel-51-x-32-x-250-mm-831843
 
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Those Damasteel options are .... stunning. I have not run across this - thank you again (and also for the Dictum options). Now ... if they only have a blade blank for a Yanagiba, but they dont :-( . (I have found a potential option at Ibuki https://ibukiblade.com/ but they are out of stock :-(. I am actually much more interested in the design, shaping, heat treating process than putting a handle on a blade blank (though I actually just did that!) - but for the specific difficulties of a Yana I will leave THAT up to the experienced!

I have found a few options for thinner damascus (Mike Norris Damascus, Vegas Forge (limited), and Texan Knives - who indicate thinner billets is not problem under their custom per-square-inch option). Stainless versus not ... now THAT is a long question and discussion - the conclusion to which I just do not have in my head right now. non-stainless does not bother me one little bit. I have non-stainless european knives (Sabatier Elephant) that are 35+ years old, frequently used, and still shine. I have always preferred the softer non-stainless knives for ease of sharpening, and my original intent focused on O1 ... however recent experience with the japanese grades, and the edge you can achieve on them, have grabbed my attention (my, how I LOVE a really, really sharp kitchen knife!). So ... I am conflicted (but that is a task for a psychologist to figure out :) ).

Definitely though, this little project for my wife I am planning needs to be damascus (for looks), needs to be stainless (likely she will not be as AR as I am about wiping a blade dry immediately), and had better come in annealed state ... as this is a series of small knives (not one larger one), that will require a lot of hack-saw cutting of a single billet into several smaller blades. Me - personally? I want the damascus for apearance and contrast of the pattern - so I will likely go right to the 5160 / 14n20, or similar combos (Alabama Damascus here I come - they do have a few thinner billets....)

If others actually have had success grinding blades down in the fully hardened state, I will have to give that a try (though all I have is a straight belt sander - no cooling) - though will leave that little experiment to some inexpensive and easily obtained steel! definitely worth keeping in mind though.
 
JTknives said:
I knew I felt my ears burning ;).
Click to expand...
JT - I WILL be calling you. Though I can not find a PM option in the forum. Does this forum have that capability and I am just not seeing it?? (sorry ... I know this is a little off thread - but HT is "related". I might be stretching a little, but hopefully the moderators will not mind too much for me as a NOOB. :-)
 
An 18" bar of Damasteel can be easily shaped into a yanagi-ba. I have several in the works.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
An 18" bar of Damasteel can be easily shaped into a yanagi-ba. I have several in the works.
Click to expand...
Oh man .. you should have never have introduced me to Damasteel. I think im a convert. Question - your Yana’s - are you using patterned steel? All such knives i have seen are single layer. Or at most two. If using a pattern i would welcome a look when you are finished...

Getting back to the origininal point of the thread- a yanagiba from bar stock would take a fair amount of removal. Is there something about the damasteel that makes grinding/drilling easier?
 
Most of mine are made from white or blue steel. Others are ni-mai (two layer), with the white/blue steel clad with wrought iron or 1008. Occasionally I will do a ni-mai with suminagashi (damascus) as the cladding. In this case, the suminagashi does not have to be a hardenable steel or high layer count. 1008 and 203E are a good mix.

My yanagi-ba in damasteel are shaped with ether the traditional katakiri (single bevel with shinogi) or as a long wa-gyuto ( western grind, Japanese handle).

Damasteel lends itself to very attractive wide blade knives like santoku and usuba. With careful cutting or one up one down, you can cut the tangs overlapping and get two blades from one bar with minimum waste.

Take a look at #831837 kitchen knife profile in Munin pattern Damasteel (Dictum). It makes a fine knife. 831839 is out of stock, but it is another great looking blade. Hugin pattern is also great for kitchen knives - 831841

The best source for US customers is RW Wilson. He sells full meter bars in many patterns. 1.25" by .100" is $515 a mete bar. This will make four 210mm edge yanagi-ba, or a set of four ranging from 150 to 250mm.
https://www.rwwilsonknives.com/store/p180/HUGIN_FULL_METER_BAR.html
 
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