Straight razor steel

R

Rsq

Joined
Aug 7, 2011
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162
I have three questions

1. Although I know it isnt, strictly speaking, a steel, can anyone with experience with Talonite tell me how they think it would fare in a straight razor? It has some properties (lubricity, rust-proof) that would be useful in a razor, but I worry that at the thinness achieved in a razor edge that the matrix would be too soft to hold the carbides

2. Same question as 1 but regarding nitrobe 77. How does/would the N steel fare with regards to edge keenness and durability?

3. Which CPM steels are most suited to a straight razor? I realize that, by the nature of CPM steel, they have a fine grain. Does the fineness vary? Which are finest? would low vanadium still be necessary in a cpm steel?
Vanadium makes the hardest carbides, which would be ideal for a razor if they werent also the largest, and thus prone to falling out of matrix at razor edge keenness. I am wondering if, by including them in a CPM steel, the oversize carbide problem is solved?
I guess the properties I am looking for are very high edge retension and keenness, so which fine grain CPMs possess the greatest combinations of these?

Thanks
 
I can't answer most of your questions but I can say that AEB-L is a steel made specifically for razors. it is the equivalent of sandvik 13c26 and takes a scary edge. it does not hold it forever, but stropping after use will produce a edge that is very, very sharp.
 
If you want oversize carbides use D2 ! CPMs don't have oversize carbides !!
The powder steels all have small carbides thus they are very suitable for razors. CPM154 is excellent as is the newer CPM S35VN .
I don't think Talonite would be useful as the matrix is rather soft .
 
mete said:
If you want oversize carbides use D2 ! CPMs don't have oversize carbides !!
The powder steels all have small carbides thus they are very suitable for razors. CPM154 is excellent as is the newer CPM S35VN .
I don't think Talonite would be useful as the matrix is rather soft .
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Oversize is exactly what I don't want, I have some cpm154 which I'm working with

I was wondering if the vanadium carbide size problem is solved by cpm production
 
Tallonite is probably not a good idea, because its got allot of carbides, and a soft cobalt matrix. That being said I just shaved today with a knife made from Tantung, which is a cousin of tallonite, but with a much harder matrix (Rcs in around 62). and even though it is a cast alloy i managed to put a wicked edge on it this morning.
 
I've never been able to get Talonite that sharp, and it's really soft so not very suitable for thin edges. CPM154 or CPM3v Would probably work quite well though.
 
:) and i would say
i have used and liek cpm154 for razors tho i think a better option woudl be carpenter steel XHP it is little more then carbon and chromium making it SS and having the lowest number and size carbides (giving the smooth shave )

abel woudl work if you could find it in the right size too
i will be testing the XHP more in razors soon but the kitchen knives i have made of it are getting high marks in ease of sharpening and how sharp they can be honed to (im still waiting on feedback on if they out last cpm154)
in a razor thats reall not a huge need as in every other day use i will shave with a cpm154 blade more then a month withought anything but a strop (im sure i could go longer then that 2-3x even but i say why, i need to test my honing and new stones anyhow:) )
 
I'd love to use xhp, where do you get thick enouh billets? I've had my eye on it for a razor, but aks doesnt supply it in anything close to 1/4
 
While Butch has way more experience than me, I daresay I will corroborate his findings. CPM-154 is excellent, CTS-XHP is even a little better. I don't think you can go wrong with either one for a thin, fine crisp edge.
 
FWIW -

I shave with my knives. I started doing it to see how sharp I could get each steel and now it's just a weird thing I do for fun.

I sharpen all my knives to hair whittling sharp, so I feel I know how to sharpen. I'm not the best sharpener out there, but I think I'm ok.

- Anyway, back to steel. I find that I get the best shave from 154 CM. CPM154 is suppose to be even better for edge retention and fine-ness of edge. So if I may use 154CM as a proxy for CPM154, I'd say it'll work great for a razor.

- I also have a blade in CPM3V. It also works very well, but not as good at 154CM.

- M390 works ok, but I can't seem to get as close a shave as the above 2 steels. It uses particle technology and is suppose to take a very fine edge...I just can't see it in my shaving. Mind you, these are all hair whittling sharp.

- S90V works ok, but probably the worst of the mentioned steels here.

I hope this helps.
 
Gunsnknives said:
FWIW -

I shave with my knives. I started doing it to see how sharp I could get each steel and now it's just a weird thing I do for fun.

I sharpen all my knives to hair whittling sharp, so I feel I know how to sharpen. I'm not the best sharpener out there, but I think I'm ok.
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What is the highest grit stone you sharpen your knives with? A razor will shave hair off a 1000 grit stone, but all razor honers go above 8000 as 8000 is considered the minimum for a smooth shave. I prefer the shave off a coti or a 16k myself. There is a HUGE difference between able to shave hair and razor sharp.
 
What is the highest grit stone you sharpen your knives with? A razor will shave hair off a 1000 grit stone, but all razor honers go above 8000 as 8000 is considered the minimum for a smooth shave. I prefer the shave off a coti or a 16k myself. There is a HUGE difference between able to shave hair and razor sharp.
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I stop my stones at 2000 grits and go to a loaded strop then a bare strop. The loaded strop puts a better finish (optically judged by my eyeballs) than I can achieve off the 2000 grit stone, although I do not know what grit/micron rating is. I just buy the finest grit out there for polishing metals from Lowes (green crayon from the power tools section) and it makes a nice edge.

Sorry, I wish I was more technical...I know there are better sharpeners out there than I.

Do you think I simply need to spend more time on the other steels to get it like 154CM? The shaving results I get from M390 are simply how clean the shave is...not how comfortable it is.
 
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In order to judge, you should really go to higher grits. It is interesting that cpm154 is good at 2000, I have many razors that would not be, but I sharpen everything in a progression that goes
1200, 4000, 8000, 14000, then loaded strops with 1μ, .5μ, .25μ, .125μ, .05μ, .025μ

It might take longer to get some steels through that progression than cpm154, but I want to know if they will even get there. If cpm390 can be taken all the way to .025μ, then I'm sure it will hold an edge longer than cpm154. In order to get there and have a smooth bevel, however, I imagine that the grain must be quite fine, which means no huge carbides.
 
so long as you think of the steel liek a cobblestone street and and while the rocks in the street add resistance to ware (thats what alloy is for )
when they chip it that makes for bigger holes depending on the size stone/allloy
now that sid you can use dimand stones and paste to better hone the carbides themselves but they still end up being firs thing to fall out at the extreme edge and when talking razors we are talking extreme. so the finese grain and carbide structure will be the best and then as you add alloy you start makeing the edge harder to hone and even when honed its more aggressive

super sharp is good but if its not smooth it still is not fun to shave with
 
medicevans said:
What is the highest grit stone you sharpen your knives with? A razor will shave hair off a 1000 grit stone, but all razor honers go above 8000 as 8000 is considered the minimum for a smooth shave. I prefer the shave off a coti or a 16k myself. There is a HUGE difference between able to shave hair and razor sharp.
Click to expand...

There's also a huge difference between a razor that will comfortably shave Joe Dirt's peach fuzz, vs. one that would have made Billy Mays' face as smooth as a baby's bottom.... (may he RIP).

I think it's funny when I see guys giving opinions on straight razor shaves who couldn't grow a beard any better than my wife or 2 year old could... ;) Not that I'm talking about anybody here, but it happens.
 
Thanks all and RSQ. I don't mean to hijack the thread as I do find this topic interesting...

Per RSQ's advice and others, I used a 6000 grit stone (down from 2000 grit previously) and stropped with a loaded strop and bare strop as before. I don't have access to anything finer at this time. I'm currently sporting a fresh shave with this new edge and it is definitely a closer shave.

The finer stone makes a difference on my M390...If I extrapolate a bit based on my quick test, I think M390 will get to that fine shaving edge eventually with the super fine stones...but it definitely takes some time with that high wear steel. I'm betting S90V will take longer (I just find it harder to work with).

Anyway, that's my experience and thank you for teaching me something new about sharpening! I thought I was an ok sharpener before (not great, but ok)...maybe now I'm ok + a little more.

What a great forum :) (although my wife thinks you folks consume too much of my time).
 
one thing that you will find is that yes you can hone the higher alloys to a smoking sharp edge that you can shave with (might need mostly diamond hones and paste ) but it will not be nearly as smooth a shave

i cn tell the difference in shave from 52100 and cpm154 as for the first few shaves the cpm154 is a bit more aggressive then i care for and needs to be stroped a bunch to become smooth

the harder the carbides in the mix and the more there are the tricker the honing and shaving
 
knife to a gunfight said:
There's also a huge difference between a razor that will comfortably shave Joe Dirt's peach fuzz, vs. one that would have made Billy Mays' face as smooth as a baby's bottom.... (may he RIP).

I think it's funny when I see guys giving opinions on straight razor shaves who couldn't grow a beard any better than my wife or 2 year old could... ;) Not that I'm talking about anybody here, but it happens.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if I should take offense or not. Think what you want, but the difference between "I can shave with my knives" and a true shave ready straight are like saying my car is fast and I have a top fuel dragster in the garage.
 
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