Stranded!

I am hopeing that Daddy-o get's the bill for the rescue operations. And that mom kicks his behind. Take kids into a place like that that you need ropes to escape from? Why would you even consider it? Looks bad when you get there? Turn around and go to plan B!
 
How exactly do you walk into a canyon, and then not be able to walk back out of it again? The only way I can think of that happening is if you continued to ascend/descend into terrain you can't back out of. Once again - poor decision-making combined with poor skills...

And I agree with Codger - send Dad the bill. Tax payers shouldn't have to foot the bill for these misadventures. Might make them think twice about being more prepared and doing their homework before heading out again.
 
This just screams lack of preperation, even the most novice adventurer; which is probably me compared to most of ya'll on this site, should know to prepare a kit just in case you have to spend a night or three stranded. The only "pat on the head" he get's is that he told someone when he'll be back and where he's going.
 
Codger_64 said:
I am hopeing that Daddy-o get's the bill for the rescue operations. And that mom kicks his behind. Take kids into a place like that that you need ropes to escape from? Why would you even consider it? Looks bad when you get there? Turn around and go to plan B!
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Really? Maybe we should foreclose on his house kicking the children into the street or perhaps the collage fund would suffice? The guy made a mistake and given all the money spent on corruption our society can foot the bill to save two children from death via exposure. Kinda reminds me of being charged 1 dollar to make a copy of something at the town hall when I paid for the paper, building, copy machine and civil servants. Makes me so darn mad! LOL! Glad to hear everything worked out. How often do we get horror stories. I am with you on mom kicking dad's backside or on to the couch for some time.
 
Woods Walker said:
Really? Maybe we should foreclose on his house kicking the children into the street or perhaps the collage fund would suffice? The guy made a mistake and given all the money spent on corruption our society can foot the bill to save two children from death via exposure. Kinda reminds me of being charged 1 dollar to make a copy of something at the town hall when I paid for the paper, building, copy machine and civil servants. Makes me so darn mad! LOL! Glad to hear everything worked out. How often do we get horror stories. I am with you on mom kicking dad's backside or on to the couch for some time.
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Yes, really.
 
From watching his interview he acknowledge his mistakes. It wasn't his first rodeo, but even experienced guys make one once and a while.
They rapelled into a canyon that should have been a walk out, but got the wrong one. The gear needed to rappel into the canyon and the gear needed to climb out are different, they didn't know they were in the wrong place until it was too late. Had he been able to self rescue, he could have easily rescued the boys and there would be no story. When climbing alone, risks that you would take change drastically, and he had to play it as safe as he could. The little bit of water, and one granola bar is a bit misleading, they had started off well hydrated and eaten all the other snacks they had brought with. Rough on the kids, but not as bad as the story seems. Yes mistakes were made, but I don't think the guy is the idiot some would claim.
 
I don't think anyone is calling the guy is an "idiot." But I do think that if people understood that they would be liable for their own rescues in cases that are clearly just the result of poor preparedness, bad decision-making and not taking wilderness seriously, it may encourage them to be more pro-active about addressing those factors, prior to heading out and creating their own unecessary risks. As it is, I think too many people have come to rely, either consciously or subconsciously, on being able to head into the backcountry assuming that rescues will be available if things go wrong due to their own cluelessness. It's all part of our culture that encourages a lack of taking personal responsibility for your predicament.

And I'm sorry, but if you are undertaking technical canyoneering - with kids no less, you damn sure better be able to read a map, or you shouldn't be rapelling into canyons without the means to climb out of them in the first place. Call that harsh if you want, but it's not judgment - it's a fact. And yes, I've spent a fair bit of time in that country - enough to know that it will judge poor decision-making a lot more harshly than I might.
 
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Smithhammer said:
How exactly do you walk into a canyon, and then not be able to walk back out of it again? The only way I can think of that happening is if you continued to ascend/descend into terrain you can't back out of. Once again - poor decision-making combined with poor skills...
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I think it's actually pretty common. People only think of figuring out the way they're going, not how to come back out if need be. Ironically, this type of behaviour is pretty common on shows like Dual Survival and Man vs Wild, you'll see those guys repel down canyons, jump off ledges, or scramble down some steep terrain, but without any warning that this could be deadly.
 
Smithhammer, I have no idea what that area looks like, so I'll go with your expertise on that. My guess is that this guy had done this just enough to be technically competent, but not enough to know when it was going wrong. Thankfuly the kids didn't pay for his mistakes.
No doubt he got out of his depth, but at least he's trying. The kids will be telling that story for years.
 
Smithhammer said:
I don't think anyone is calling the guy is an "idiot." But I do think that if people understood that they would be liable for their own rescues in cases that are clearly just the result of poor preparedness, bad decision-making and not taking wilderness seriously, it may encourage them to be more pro-active about addressing those factors, prior to heading out and creating their own unecessary risks. As it is, I think too many people have come to rely, either consciously or subconsciously, on being able to head into the backcountry assuming that rescues will be available if things go wrong due to their own cluelessness. It's all part of our culture that encourages a lack of taking personal responsibility for your predicament.

And I'm sorry, but if you are undertaking technical canyoneering - with kids no less, you damn sure better be able to read a map, or you shouldn't be rapelling into canyons without the means to climb out of them in the first place. Call that harsh if you want, but it's not judgment - it's a fact. And yes, I've spent a fair bit of time in that country - enough to know that it will judge poor decision-making a lot more harshly than I might.
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If people are made liable for their own rescue then OUR including those people's tax money shouldn't ALREADY be spent buying the helicopter, training the personal, and ALREADY for the love of all that is holly paying their wages. The politicians fly around like kings at our expensive building roads and bridges to nowhere. There should be enough money to save We the People's children as well. Just the rantings of a tax payer at the end of his rope. LOL!
 
Codger_64 said:
Yes, really.
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If were hundreds of billions to pay 100% to untangle questionable trades during the last horse and pony show collapse there is money enough to save those kids. Yea really. I am done on this topic and will go back to packing up for my opening day trout campout.
 
gadgetgeek said:
My guess is that this guy had done this just enough to be technically competent, but not enough to know when it was going wrong.
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If he didn't even know where he was (being in an entirely different canyon) then I would say his basic map skills were lacking and he was not technically competent. I would also say that if you are carrying rappelling gear for canyoneering, and not carrying any means to ascend, you're tempting fate.

I'm certainly not saying I haven't made mistakes before - I definitely have. But these were some significant ones that we should all learn from, which is the whole reason to discuss these incidents. 'Accident trains' often start with a series of small mistakes that compound themselves.

gadgetgeek said:
Thankfuly the kids didn't pay for his mistakes.
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Agreed. It could have been tragic, and thankfully it wasn't.

Woods Walker said:
If people are made liable for their own rescue then OUR including those people's tax money shouldn't ALREADY be spent buying the helicopter, training the personal, and ALREADY for the love of all that is holly paying their wages.
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Not really. There are plenty of situations in which rescues are necessary and warranted, and not the fault of the foolhardy and ill-prepared. I have no qualms about a portion of my tax money going toward funding training, personnel and equipment for search and rescue whatsoever. In fact, I'd rather my tax $$ going there than to a number of other things.

There are also numerous examples of people being given the bill for their own rescues. It's not unheard of, by any means. Personally, I'd like to see it happen more often.

I also understand the point that those who willingly engage in professional search and rescue accept that this is part of the reality of the job, and they generously do it anyway, for which they have all of my respect. But still - I think there need to be consequences for the expense, time and risk of having others bail you out when you simply haven't done proper homework, or else too many people don't take the risks of the real world seriously, and take S&R for granted.

Woods Walker said:
The politicians fly around like kings at our expensive building roads and bridges to nowhere. There should be enough money to save We the People's children as well. Just the rantings of a tax payer at the end of his rope. LOL!
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I don't disagree with this sentiment, but that's a whole other can of worms beyond the scope of this discussion.
 
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I think that the idea of financial consequences being based on whether the guy should have known better or not is a red herring.
 
W.M.B. said:
I think that the idea of financial consequences being based on whether the guy should have known better or not is a red herring.
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Ok. A red herring for what?

Btw, I'd be the first to admit that a process for deciding who ends up paying and who doesn't would be a mess, and probably sufficient to ensure it is never a common practice. The only reason I bother bringing it up is that I get tired of hearing these stories...
 
Up here it's a bit of a different animal as far as I'm concerned. With public healthcare, there's loads of crack/meth addicts abusing the system, collecting welfare checks, in and out of jail, overdosing and getting free ambulance rides for free treatment at the hospital. As long as my tax dollars are paying for that ridiculous crap, I don't think charging people for a mistake made when out enjoying the outdoors(a healthy hobby) is justifiable.

Not to mention that, if worried about the costs involved with getting rescued, no doubt people would think twice about calling for help, and either end up dead, or possibly in a rescue situation much more difficult than what it initially was.

That said, if you're hitting the button on your SPOT locator because your water bottle is empty, or you've got a blister, that's a bit of a different story. No doubt the run around involved in deciding whether or not someone should be charged, and the inevitable appeals and legal process would be ridiculous, and probably cost more than the rescue charges in the first place.
 
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