Strange question.. forging Stainless and Carbon steel together?

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Oct 12, 2014
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Some japanese knives are made with outer core of soft steel and inner core of blue/white/super blue, would any maker be able to forge a relatively easy to sharpen stainless with a core of blue steel for example?

My understanding is stainless is difficult to forge and requires a high temperature, so maybe not... It would be interesting to see if this style of knife can be made just cause.. :)
 
It isn't easy, but more than a couple of bladesmiths and factories do it. It's a lot of trouble for what you get out of it.
 
People make alminated blades with carbo steel center and stainless on each side. Inever understood this as what I worry about is cutting edge [center layer ] which should be stainless not the less critical outsides.
 
People make alminated blades with carbo steel center and stainless on each side. Inever understood this as what I worry about is cutting edge [center layer ] which should be stainless not the less critical outsides.

I get that it may be perceived as a more corrosion resistant way to have nice carbon steel edge, but a corroded edge is a problem. Just an easier one to fix.

What I don't understand is why no one talks about the carbon migration problem when you weld high carbon to low.
 
People make alminated blades with carbo steel center and stainless on each side. Inever understood this as what I worry about is cutting edge [center layer ] which should be stainless not the less critical outsides.

The reason people will put the stainless on the flats and primary bevel is so the majority of the blade is relatively easy to care for, in terms rust prevention and maintenence.
While the carbon steel core, showing in the very bottom part of the primary bevel, secondary bevel and cutting edge will still need to have some precautionary measures taken in regards to care. That being said, carbon steel is used as the core because it, generally speaking, can be hardened to a higher RC, is more stable with a finer edge angle, and can be sharpened to a more refined edge.

If they had a softer stainless core wrapped in a carbon jacket, it would serve no purpose. The stainless edge would dull faster, unless it was a Really higher end, fine carbide steel, m390/s110v/s125v. Though even then you would only get a toothier edge as it wore, not a smooth, polished edge that produces a Really smooth slicing edge that requires a maintenance a little more frequently via a strop. All the while, needing More maintenance due to it being jacketed in carbon steel which will patina and rust if not cared for correctly.

This is all speculation addressing others responses.

OP: Did you mean a laminated blade like they assumed, or a forged, pattern welded, damascus style blade?
Damascus or more accurately, pattern welded steel is a mixed steel of sorts. Generally mixed of higher and lower Nickel, chromium, or other materials, that will etch at different rates or near not at all, if a stainless steel was used in the mix.

I get that it may be perceived as a more corrosion resistant way to have nice carbon steel edge, but a corroded edge is a problem. Just an easier one to fix.

What I don't understand is why no one talks about the carbon migration problem when you weld high carbon to low.

When creating a damascus styled, pattern welded blade, the carbon migration is somewhat mitigated due to the fact that the different steels used will wear at different rates along the cutting edge. This in turn is creating a very toothy cutting edge, one that can often be felt by running your fingernail down it. The ridges and valleys will sometimes feel like a hill, climbing and falling, sometimes they will be sheer and abrupt.

So while some of the carbon will bleed from the higher % to the lower, it isn't really enough to be noticed, at least not in the shadow of the more visable effects on how the blade is "feels" in hand.
 
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Some japanese knives are made with outer core of soft steel and inner core of blue/white/super blue, would any maker be able to forge a relatively easy to sharpen stainless with a core of blue steel for example?

My understanding is stainless is difficult to forge and requires a high temperature, so maybe not... It would be interesting to see if this style of knife can be made just cause.. :)

Dunno why you'd need to forge it specifically. Spyderco has a number of models with Aogami super blue core clad in 420J1. Cladding has a few advantages, supposedly it's cheaper, you can thin the primary grind more easily, and additional corrosion resistance to name a few.
 
Dunno why you'd need to forge it specifically. Spyderco has a number of models with Aogami super blue core clad in 420J1. Cladding has a few advantages, supposedly it's cheaper, you can thin the primary grind more easily, and additional corrosion resistance to name a few.

Forge welding is how it ended up clad in 420.

When creating a damascus styled, pattern welded blade, the carbon migration is somewhat mitigated due to the fact that the different steels used will wear at different rates along the cutting edge. This in turn is creating a very toothy cutting edge, one that can often be felt by running your fingernail down it. The ridges and valleys will sometimes feel like a hill, climbing and falling, sometimes they will be sheer and abrupt.
I didn't assume that it couldn't be damascus. Devin Thomas's 304 damascus is what first got me thinking about this, but he uses only a small amount of 304. However, many smiths use low carbon stainless or low carbon nickel steel like 203E with high carbon for san mai and damascus in amounts that cause the carbon to migrate out of the high carbon and into the low. So your 1084 core that's supposed to be .84% carbon could drop below .5% if it is welded to chunks of low carbon stuff. Whether it is damascus or san mai, if your final product is relatively low carbon it isn't going to hold an edge very well.
 
As someone who uses a kitchen knife with a carbon Blue Paper steel edge and stainless sides daily I can tell you that it's excellent for use.

I would not want this for something that I hardly ever used however. The very edge (except for that very thin microbevel that I pass over a waterstone on a regular basis) turns deep black with patina but doesn't "rust".

It does not corrode enough to have edge degredation (It simply gets used too much for that) and the sides stay nice and clean.

Personally, I'm a fan.

i__M_a_Fan_by_miskiti.jpg
 
So your 1084 core that's supposed to be .84% carbon could drop below .5% if it is welded to chunks of low carbon stuff. Whether it is damascus or san mai, if your final product is relatively low carbon it isn't going to hold an edge very well.

This statement is sheer speculation regarding the values listed. With out testing on a piece by piece basis, the best one could venture would be an educated guess, and that would only be through previous extensive testing of comparable steel qualities and quantities.
That being said, it will, in all probability hold an edge for a shorter duration than a more pure version
 
This statement is sheer speculation regarding the values listed. With out testing on a piece by piece basis, the best one could venture would be an educated guess, and that would only be through previous extensive testing of comparable steel qualities and quantities.
That being said, it will, in all probability hold an edge for a shorter duration than a more pure version
The values are guesses, but based on the fact that nearly complete carbon diffusion occurs during the first forging. Every subsequent forging, normalizing and austenitizing heat is going to average the carbon further, to the point that you'd have to operating on wishful thinking to not assume that the finished product has a distribution of carbon that is uniform and at a level based on the amounts available in the starting metals. And that isn't difficult math to do.

This article spells it out:
http://www.asminternational.org/doc...2p24.pdf/815e5afe-300f-457e-9a2d-9057a4bb538b
 
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