Strop compound binder

T

Threethreethree

Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
117
Hello,

Whats the binder used in jeweler's rouge ?
The reason im asking is i got a bunch of cr oxide in powder form, as of now i used mineral oil to make it stay on whatever substrate i use (balsa most of the time). However i dont like the slick glidy feel caused by oil, i do like some draw on my strop and as far as i can tell the only compound that gives the draw i like is jeweler's rouge which isnt abrasive enough for the steels i use.
The white compound im using as my bread n' butter also has a very strong draw but only when its all loaded and nearly black, while with the rouge it has that draw right from the start and it fades once the compound turns to dark grey.

Thanx for help
 
Interesting question.

The guy that I get my compound from wouldn't tell me what the binder was when I asked him about it, only because it's a proprietary formula.

Some guesses were bees wax, or bees wax mixed with a bit of petroleum jelly. Neither were right, but I got the feeling that I was on the right track.

In any case, if I were to mix my own compound that's exactly what I'd use. The wax should give you the trait that you're looking for, and the petro will condition the leather, while also thinning the wax a bit in order to make it more easily spread.
Just an idea, but I'll be watching the thread. I'm curious about this too, obviously. ;)
 
There's a lot that goes into getting a good binder for a given abrasive at a given grit value intended for a given application. Beeswax works pretty good for a simple method, as does tallow. Be careful, CrO in powder form is a genuine health hazard, as opposed to SiC and AlumOx dust which are both classified as nuisance substances. Bars and tubes of CrO are pretty inexpensive...
 
Yes green compound is cheap however i cant find any around here so i have to fiddle around.
Seems that green is really common for you US folks but here in Europe it seems rare, i only find red and white most of the time or i have to use car body polish compounds.
 
I recently picked up 1 lb. jars of chrome-ox and silicon carbide compound (600 grit) at a local lapidary shop. I've been experimenting with application methods with both of them.

This may sound somewhat silly, but I've actually used some mineral oil-based skin lotion as a mixing agent/binder for these, when applying them to leather. Works great for the initial application, and I haven't detected any issues with residue interfering with the compound's effectiveness. I use a plastic straw to scoop a little powder from the jar (replace the lid immediately), and then drop that compound in a small container for mixing with the lotion. I'm sure this would work for simple mineral oil also. The side of the straw itself works quite well as a 'spreader' on the leather, after dropping a dab of the mixed compound on the leather. I have followed that by rubbing the compound more deeply into the leather with my fingertips. The thing I like the most about using the lotion is, it's very easy to clean up afterwards with soap & water (same as what you'd do in just washing your hands).


David
 
Most recently mixing up some silicon carbide powders. The 1000 grit and 1200 grit worked great with straight beeswax - melted and mixed it in a stainless shotglass and packed it into a small silicone rubber mold. Works very well applied to copy paper, haven't tried it on leather. Best mix seems to be 80% SiC to 20% beeswax by weight. As I went down in grit value the beeswax stopped giving good performance and I switched over to a blend of beeswax and paraffin for the 600 grit and at 300 grit had to go to entirely paraffin for the binder. I'm certain there are standard binders in most compounds and am also reasonably certain beeswax and paraffin aren't on the list - even if serviceable.

Have found with the really fine powders, one can mix with a few drops of water and rub into a sheet of paper - allow to dry and you've got a decent polishing paper with no binder/vehicle. Might work as well on leather?

There's a lot to this - even among mainstream manufactured compounds there's a lot of variety in how they go down and function.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Most recently mixing up some silicon carbide powders. The 1000 grit and 1200 grit worked great with straight beeswax - melted and mixed it in a stainless shotglass and packed it into a small silicone rubber mold. Works very well applied to copy paper, haven't tried it on leather. Best mix seems to be 80% SiC to 20% beeswax by weight. As I went down in grit value the beeswax stopped giving good performance and I switched over to a blend of beeswax and paraffin for the 600 grit and at 300 grit had to go to entirely paraffin for the binder. I'm certain there are standard binders in most compounds and am also reasonably certain beeswax and paraffin aren't on the list - even if serviceable.

Have found with the really fine powders, one can mix with a few drops of water and rub into a sheet of paper - allow to dry and you've got a decent polishing paper with no binder/vehicle. Might work as well on leather?

There's a lot to this - even among mainstream manufactured compounds there's a lot of variety in how they go down and function.
Click to expand...

I'm still trying to find a 'best' backing for the 600 SiC compound, so I'll try with water on paper as you've suggested. I haven't quite figured out if this SiC compound is a best match for the (desired) finish on my edges, which always tend to be somewhat polished. I have seen that this stuff removes metal very quickly, especially if used on wood backing. When I've followed the SiC with the green compound on the rough side of my leather belt, it almost instantly puts the bite back on the edge (1095 or simpler stainless). If the SiC is used by itself, I suspect it's leaving some small burrs or other edge debris, due to somewhat snagging performance on paper-cutting tests afterwards. The green compound cleans that up quickly, however.

I'll probably run back into town soon and pick up some different grit SiC (maybe coarser). HH, you've previously mentioned using some coarse(?) grit on paper wrapped around a stone; what grit was that, and what did you specifically like about it?


David
 
Take my response with a grain of salt on this one. There's a lot i don't know, and a lot I thought I knew that didn't pan out across a range of steels and profiles when it comes to 'creative stropping'.

SiC grit polishes way above its grit rating unless squeezed on a lapping board of some kind or other unyielding surface. The grit itself is blocky and jellybean shaped, can make a nearly mirror polish at 1200 grit. It doesn't do the best job as a stropping compound unless its stuck really well. My best results have been by using large grit (220, 120) on the sueded side of some leather, or using beeswax to "glue" it to paper. Had good results in the past by using it on waxed leather, but it would embed in the wax and stop working very quickly. I also suspect most graded SiC is too rounded and uniform from being screened to work as well as other alternatives. The grit I reclaim from my Crystalon stone is a totally different animal - leaves a clean toothy finish. The grit I reclaim from my jointing stone is even better. The stuff I got from a lapidary supply house seems to work best as a polishing agent or for lapping under pressure, it does not work as well as other alternatives for satin finishing and medium grit stropping. Black compound from Sears, Dico, Ryobi works better in this role IMHO. The 300 grit SIC compound I made works OK but side by side the AlumOx black emery works better in my testing.

Am very interested to hear what works for others in this respect. For getting and maintaining the microtoothy edge, I keep coming back to backhoning on waterstones or jointer stones, especially for a touch up. Lapping on hardwood works great but very temperamental.

In general, I get best results from stropping on paper over a stone or other hard backing, with any grit value. This seems to give best combination of not rounding the apex, good grit adhesion to the stropping surface, and a solution for when it loads up. I'm looking to just see a burr form with moderate to light pressure, and the burr to disappear with lighter pressure or the addition of a drop or two of mineral oil/water/ whatever makes sense for my "compound". As the size of the abrasive drops down to the low single digits for micron, or sub-micron, it might not be possible to create a burr, but at that point I'm gunning for a polished edge anyway. To finish a toothier edge from waterstone/coarse compound/lapping etc, I strop on plain copy paper, no compound. If you try this route the #1 concern is not having any loose abrasive under the paper that might mess with the thin steel at the apex (not to mention the scratch it will leave in the backbevel.

HH
 
Great piece of knowledge written down here, thanks a lot.
I just tried some candle wax it somewhat works ok, it has a bit more draw but it does flake a lot and is a mess to spread, it does darken way faster than with oil though. I might try some sugar based binder later.
I have yet to try very hard backing like stone or glass but since im a convex guy i dont know if thats a bright idea.
 
Threethreethree said:
Great piece of knowledge written down here, thanks a lot.
I just tried some candle wax it somewhat works ok, it has a bit more draw but it does flake a lot and is a mess to spread, it does darken way faster than with oil though. I might try some sugar based binder later.
I have yet to try very hard backing like stone or glass but since im a convex guy i dont know if thats a bright idea.
Click to expand...

I'd be concerned about a sugar-based(?) binder, if only because there'd be additional issues with acidity (sugars break down into acids). Would have to be very thorough about keeping everything clean, with non-stainless blades, else there might be corrosion issues later on.

Even glass-backed sharpening/stropping will convex a little, if done freehand. That's how I've been doing most of my maintenance lately, over glass (sandpaper, or compound on leather/paper/cardboard over glass). If not comfortable with trying hard backing yet, a gradual transition to it can be made using ever-decreasing thicknesses/layers of paper over glass or hardwood.


David
 
Threethreethree said:
Great piece of knowledge written down here, thanks a lot.
I just tried some candle wax it somewhat works ok, it has a bit more draw but it does flake a lot and is a mess to spread, it does darken way faster than with oil though. I might try some sugar based binder later.
I have yet to try very hard backing like stone or glass but since im a convex guy i dont know if thats a bright idea.
Click to expand...

Try thinning the candle wax with a drop of mineral oil. It will still have good draw and adhesion but a lot less flaking.
 
I'm not sure how helpful this would be, but. Have you tried looking at how artists mix pigments for paint and such. Mixing the inorganic or mineral pigments at 3 micron isn't too different than this. I helped my artsy friend and his red was iron oxide. i tried it as a stropping compound by just painting it on paper. It worked ok, but this was way back when i could just get a knife to shave. A lot of other hobbyists mix these types of things for different purposes. You never know what might help.
 
It does remind of something i read here about woodworkers in the past using green paint ( some green paints use Cr oxide as their pigment) on paint stirring sticks to strop their chisel.

I have tried Wd40 to gently wet the balsa before loading it up with compound, then allowed to dry, it does wonders and totally inhibits the flaking yet it remains 'drawy'.
Now im gonna cut and sand some balsa bits to try with honey or pop soda as strange as that may sound.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Take my response with a grain of salt on this one. There's a lot i don't know, and a lot I thought I knew that didn't pan out across a range of steels and profiles when it comes to 'creative stropping'.

SiC grit polishes way above its grit rating unless squeezed on a lapping board of some kind or other unyielding surface. The grit itself is blocky and jellybean shaped, can make a nearly mirror polish at 1200 grit. It doesn't do the best job as a stropping compound unless its stuck really well. My best results have been by using large grit (220, 120) on the sueded side of some leather, or using beeswax to "glue" it to paper. Had good results in the past by using it on waxed leather, but it would embed in the wax and stop working very quickly. I also suspect most graded SiC is too rounded and uniform from being screened to work as well as other alternatives. The grit I reclaim from my Crystalon stone is a totally different animal - leaves a clean toothy finish. The grit I reclaim from my jointing stone is even better. The stuff I got from a lapidary supply house seems to work best as a polishing agent or for lapping under pressure, it does not work as well as other alternatives for satin finishing and medium grit stropping. Black compound from Sears, Dico, Ryobi works better in this role IMHO. The 300 grit SIC compound I made works OK but side by side the AlumOx black emery works better in my testing.

Am very interested to hear what works for others in this respect. For getting and maintaining the microtoothy edge, I keep coming back to backhoning on waterstones or jointer stones, especially for a touch up. Lapping on hardwood works great but very temperamental.

In general, I get best results from stropping on paper over a stone or other hard backing, with any grit value. This seems to give best combination of not rounding the apex, good grit adhesion to the stropping surface, and a solution for when it loads up. I'm looking to just see a burr form with moderate to light pressure, and the burr to disappear with lighter pressure or the addition of a drop or two of mineral oil/water/ whatever makes sense for my "compound". As the size of the abrasive drops down to the low single digits for micron, or sub-micron, it might not be possible to create a burr, but at that point I'm gunning for a polished edge anyway. To finish a toothier edge from waterstone/coarse compound/lapping etc, I strop on plain copy paper, no compound. If you try this route the #1 concern is not having any loose abrasive under the paper that might mess with the thin steel at the apex (not to mention the scratch it will leave in the backbevel.

HH
Click to expand...

HH, thanks for this. I'm still reading, re-reading and digesting your tips here, and thinking of some things to try. Sort of interesting about the 600 SiC compound I mentioned earlier; yesterday I picked up a quick-made leather strop I'd made a couple days prior (using sueded side of a piece of scrap veg-tan), having applied the SiC mixed with the mineral oil-based lotion at that time. When I'd first used it an hour or two after applying the compound, it didn't seem to work as well as I'd hoped, seemingly leaving a lot of debris on my edges and/or over-polishing/rounding the apex. But, now that the lotion suspension has essentially dried out, I'm finding it to work more impressively. What you'd mentioned about SiC compound polishing above it's grit rating really holds true for me as well. Even at '600' grit, this compound seems to be leaving or even enhancing a mirror(ish) finish on my bevels (1095, 420HC, etc.), but the edge itself is still remaining pretty clean & crisp. So, that seemingly introduces a new variable, in the curing/drying time of the suspension for the compound. In retrospect, I kind of saw the same variability in using diamond paste, if used too soon after application. That stuff has a completely different character when it's still 'sticky' on the strop.

I'm still curious to try some coarser SiC, maybe 220 or similar. So, I think I'll re-visit the lapidary shop on my next run into town.


David
 
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