Stropping compound vs ultra fine stone question

[Ryan J]

I'm going to purchase the Kme system soon. The kit ends at 1000 grit. After that they offer chosera stones to 10k, and emulsions down to .1 micron after that. I have a limited budget. I have rubbing compounds and can make my own strop blanks. Later I'll buy there's just for convenience. Anyway my question is will I get better refinement results if I buy the 5k and 10k stones as opposed to Stropping from 2k? Or does the compound do the same job? Thanks

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

A given compound, of a given abrasive type and grit size, will work effectively 'finer' on a softer strop of wood, leather, etc. than it would work in a hard-bound 'stone' of the same exact grit type & size. The difference is with the 'bedding' (substrate) into which the grit is embedded. Hard substrates will prevent or minimize the 'give' under pressure, which makes the grit dig deeper into the material being ground/polished; a softer substrate will have more give, in effect providing a cushion or 'shock absorber' under pressure exerted, which makes the grit work less aggressively.

In a nutshell, stropping with a particular grit type & size should enable more refinement, as compared to using the same identical grit in a stone. A real-world example is with DMT's EEF diamond: as used in their EEF hone (3µ grit; steel-backed and embedded in nickel substrate), it'll leave a coarser scratch pattern than the same grit used in DMT's 3µ Dia-Paste compound used on a strop of wood or leather, which produces a much higher polish.

And 'better refinement' sort of depends on what's meant by 'better' or 'refined'. The stropping compounds will certainly provide higher polish, all other things being equal. But, 'better refinement' could also imply a crisper edge with more 'bite', produced with a similar grit in a fine stone. Best way to know which is really 'better', is to try each and see which result suits you best.


David

 

[sir_mike]

I'm going to purchase the Kme system soon. The kit ends at 1000 grit. After that they offer chosera stones to 10k, and emulsions down to .1 micron after that. I have a limited budget. I have rubbing compounds and can make my own strop blanks. Later I'll buy there's just for convenience. Anyway my question is will I get better refinement results if I buy the 5k and 10k stones as opposed to Stropping from 2k? Or does the compound do the same job? Thanks

Are you getting the set with the diamond stone or the other one? Just wondered as I was looking at one of those too! How "refined" do you want the edge?

 

[Ryan J]

Thanks for the replies. Basically when it comes to refinement I want no visible scratch patterns. I'm going with the ceramic stonds. The creator of the edge pro said he only sells diamonds for ceramic knives as steel is to soft and will from around the diamond and pull it off. Then other users on here have great luck with diamonds. Everything I've read says diamonds cut the most aggressively, then ceramic, then natural. I'd rather have a better polish then faster results. I'll get a coarse diamond for reprofiling though. Seems to work for a lot of people here. And thanks David for the informative reply. I'll try different substrates with the compounds. I wish I could know the grit or micron sizes of the compounds but can't find it. I guess what I was trying to get at was can I remove 2k scratches with my first (green) compound. If I can then I won't spend $100 for the 5k and 10k stones. Your right I'll probably just have to try. Thanks for the substrate tip though I'll probably have better luck finishing from 2k if I start polishing with balsa

 

[m_bisson]

Do these compounds behave differently over time?

For example, some car polishes get broken down and become finer as you work with them. So you get the initial maximum size, then smaller sizes as well.

 

[Ryan J]

Are you getting the set with the diamond stone or the other one? Just wondered as I was looking at one of those too! How "refined" do you want the edge?

New to this forum and just figured out how to reply with Quote. Anyway way I responded up above and put this here so you would get the notification

 

[Ryan J]

A given compound, of a given abrasive type and grit size, will work effectively 'finer' on a softer strop of wood, leather, etc. than it would work in a hard-bound 'stone' of the same exact grit type & size. The difference is with the 'bedding' (substrate) into which the grit is embedded. Hard substrates will prevent or minimize the 'give' under pressure, which makes the grit dig deeper into the material being ground/polished; a softer substrate will have more give, in effect providing a cushion or 'shock absorber' under pressure exerted, which makes the grit work less aggressively.

In a nutshell, stropping with a particular grit type & size should enable more refinement, as compared to using the same identical grit in a stone. A real-world example is with DMT's EEF diamond: as used in their EEF hone (3µ grit; steel-backed and embedded in nickel substrate), it'll leave a coarser scratch pattern than the same grit used in DMT's 3µ Dia-Paste compound used on a strop of wood or leather, which produces a much higher polish.

And 'better refinement' sort of depends on what's meant by 'better' or 'refined'. The stropping compounds will certainly provide higher polish, all other things being equal. But, 'better refinement' could also imply a crisper edge with more 'bite', produced with a similar grit in a fine stone. Best way to know which is really 'better', is to try each and see which result suits you best.


David

New to the forum and just figured out how to respond with Quote and replied to thread before. Feel like an idiot having to do this twice lol. Anyway by refinement I mean less teeth and a smoother more uniform apex. I guess the gist of the question is can I remove 2k scratches with green compound. More detailed reply to your post above

 

[nasty_nate_84]

i have found that the green compound itself doesn't remove the scratches easily. i go down from a brown white tben green seems to work better or black white green but hey maybe. you can get it to work there are alot of factors i use no pressure pretty much when stropping you may use more and it may work for you

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

New to the forum and just figured out how to respond with Quote and replied to thread before. Feel like an idiot having to do this twice lol. Anyway by refinement I mean less teeth and a smoother more uniform apex. I guess the gist of the question is can I remove 2k scratches with green compound. More detailed reply to your post above

Green compound may be a little too fine to remove 2K scratches. What steel are you referencing? Some high-wear steels like S30V, and even some of the mid-range higher-alloy steels like 154CM or VG-10 won't respond as well to green compound, which is why I'm asking. Generally, a 'white rouge' or similar fine AlOx can handle a lot of these polishing jobs; it even works well on simpler steels like 1095 or 420HC. Green isn't an aggressive polisher in general, and is best-used on simpler steels as a final (or near final) means to clean up light burrs & such. It works well to clean up burrs and weakened remnants on an otherwise 'toothy' finish, if wanting to protect that toothy bite. Black emery or white (AlOx) compounds are capable of very aggressive polishing, even at relatively small grit size (10µ or finer).


David

 

[Ryan J]

Looks like I will pull the trigger on the stones then. Nothing high end as steel goes. Kershaw in 8cr13mov,cold steel in aus 8, true flight thrower in 1055 (which makes an excellent camp knife after reprofiled) so mostly mid grade. Just starting my collection. Next will be a composite Kershaw with d2 edge. My jeweler aunt is sending me white and yellow compounds. It surprisingly hard to find info on them. Glad I came here because I couldn't clearly find if green or white was the finer of the two. As for yellow I can find nothing. My aunt said it's for wood and stones so I'm assuming it's fine. I'll try it last and see. I finish them with mothers lately. Worked great on the blade of my cold steel so I figure it should work on an edge. There are pics in the only other post I have on here.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Looks like I will pull the trigger on the stones then. Nothing high end as steel goes. Kershaw in 8cr13mov,cold steel in aus 8, true flight thrower in 1055 (which makes an excellent camp knife after reprofiled) so mostly mid grade. Just starting my collection. Next will be a composite Kershaw with d2 edge. My jeweler aunt is sending me white and yellow compounds. It surprisingly hard to find info on them. Glad I came here because I couldn't clearly find if green or white was the finer of the two. As for yellow I can find nothing. My aunt said it's for wood and stones so I'm assuming it's fine. I'll try it last and see. I finish them with mothers lately. Worked great on the blade of my cold steel so I figure it should work on an edge. There are pics in the only other post I have on here.

Some 'white' compounds may be something other than aluminum oxide (AlOx), which is normally what you'd want in white, for stropping. Some jewelers may use a tin oxide compound (ironically called 'white diamond', completely misleading), which is also white, but won't be hard enough for use on hardened steel. There's even a white 'talc' compound, which is extremely soft. Compounds used for woods, plastics and stones (some compounds) may also be a bit soft for steel. Not sure what the yellow you're getting would be composed of, so I guess you'll have to see if that'll work or not.


David

 

[Ryan J]

Some 'white' compounds may be something other than aluminum oxide (AlOx), which is normally what you'd want in white, for stropping. Some jewelers may use a tin oxide compound (ironically called 'white diamond', completely misleading), which is also white, but won't be hard enough for use on hardened steel. There's even a white 'talc' compound, which is extremely soft. Compounds used for woods, plastics and stones (some compounds) may also be a bit soft for steel. Not sure what the yellow you're getting would be composed of, so I guess you'll have to see if that'll work or not.


David

Okay. Lesson learned. Buy compounds in which I know the composition, experiment with them for best results, stick to that brand. Thanks for all the help. Do you have a brand preference?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Okay. Lesson learned. Buy compounds in which I know the composition, experiment with them for best results, stick to that brand. Thanks for all the help. Do you have a brand preference?

I've tried and liked brands such as Ryobi (found at Home Depot), and I've found that simple polishing pastes like Simichrome or Mother's Mag polish also work well (Flitz paste also gets good reviews). Others here on the forum have said positive things about the Bark River compounds, though I've not tried them. And Flexcut 'Gold' compound has also had good reviews as well (it's one of the 'yellow' compounds that seems to work for steel, with aluminum oxide being the abrasive). If you look for buffing compounds specifically labelled for polishing stainless steel and other 'hard' metals, you'll generally do OK.


David

 

[Ryan J]

I've tried and liked brands such as Ryobi (found at Home Depot), and I've found that simple polishing pastes like Simichrome or Mother's Mag polish also work well (Flitz paste also gets good reviews). Others here on the forum have said positive things about the Bark River compounds, though I've not tried them. And Flexcut 'Gold' compound has also had good reviews as well (it's one of the 'yellow' compounds that seems to work for steel, with aluminum oxide being the abrasive). If you look for buffing compounds specifically labelled for polishing stainless steel and other 'hard' metals, you'll generally do OK.


David

Read some of your posts on other threads like the one about ryobi polishing compounds. Thanks for posting the valuable info. One final question. The Chosera stones are pricey. Is 1k ceramic to 5k to big of a jump on do I need to get a 3k between them. I'm pretty obsessive as well and if I can't remove the scratch pattern from the previous stone I won't be satisfied.

 

[ksskss]

KME makes a good system. The diamonds are good aggressive stones (plates). Followed by the Chocera stones, you continue to refine your edges. The compounds work considerably better than green compound or the other compounds you mention. Some of those compounds that jewelers use are not hard enough to abrade steel. If you are sharpening soft knives (low Hardness, low abrasion resistance) you can make bigger jumps. For harder steels for instance you would want to include the 2k or 3k stone before the 5k. As a reference, the 4 micron compound is equivalent to a 4k stone. You can transition between stones to compounds at various levels. For harder steels, go to the strops sooner since the CBN abrasive cuts these steels better.

---
Ken

 

[dkb45]

Thanks for the replies. Basically when it comes to refinement I want no visible scratch patterns. I'm going with the ceramic stonds. The creator of the edge pro said he only sells diamonds for ceramic knives as steel is to soft and will from around the diamond and pull it off. Then other users on here have great luck with diamonds. Everything I've read says diamonds cut the most aggressively, then ceramic, then natural. I'd rather have a better polish then faster results. I'll get a coarse diamond for reprofiling though. Seems to work for a lot of people here. And thanks David for the informative reply. I'll try different substrates with the compounds. I wish I could know the grit or micron sizes of the compounds but can't find it. I guess what I was trying to get at was can I remove 2k scratches with my first (green) compound. If I can then I won't spend $100 for the 5k and 10k stones. Your right I'll probably just have to try. Thanks for the substrate tip though I'll probably have better luck finishing from 2k if I start polishing with balsa

Diamond stones (or abrasives) are optimal for steels like S30V, Elmax, and M390 which have a Vanadium carbide content. Only diamond or CBN will abrade vanadium carbides, other materials will just abrade the matrix supporting the steel, leaving the carbides weakened.

Either the maker of the Edge Pro was misquoted, or the guy was running on way too little sleep. Hardened steel is not that pliable, and you should NEVER use enough pressure to make the steel conform at all, especially with diamond stones because the diamonds will just be ripped off the plate.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

For the simple steel you have (& I have plenty) try white compound with balance strop.

 

[me2]

I much prefer ultrafine stones to stropping, however, ultrafine stones get very pricey very quickly. For that reason, strops are really the only option unless you are prepared to spend the money.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Read some of your posts on other threads like the one about ryobi polishing compounds. Thanks for posting the valuable info. One final question. The Chosera stones are pricey. Is 1k ceramic to 5k to big of a jump on do I need to get a 3k between them. I'm pretty obsessive as well and if I can't remove the scratch pattern from the previous stone I won't be satisfied.

I haven't used waterstones (yet), so the best I could suggest here is to work with your 1k and 5k for a while and see if the finished results off the 5k are suitable for you, in terms of the final polish. In general terms, if high polish is the priority, then narrowing the jumps in grit is the best way to get there. Based on what I've read from the real waterstone experts here on BF, individual waterstones can have their own unique character, and some stones may not conform to the usual assumptions about spec'd grit versus the finish they produce.


David

 

[Ryan J]

KME makes a good system. The diamonds are good aggressive stones (plates). Followed by the Chocera stones, you continue to refine your edges. The compounds work considerably better than green compound or the other compounds you mention. Some of those compounds that jewelers use are not hard enough to abrade steel. If you are sharpening soft knives (low Hardness, low abrasion resistance) you can make bigger jumps. For harder steels for instance you would want to include the 2k or 3k stone before the 5k. As a reference, the 4 micron compound is equivalent to a 4k stone. You can transition between stones to compounds at various levels. For harder steels, go to the strops sooner since the CBN abrasive cuts these steels better.

---
Ken

Okay. Now I understand the particle size of a 1k diamond stone should be equivalent roughly to a 1k ceramic so the scratches shouldn't be deeper with Diamond. But I've noticed in the videos I've watched on the kme that after people finish with the diamond hones they use the first of the Chosera set which is 600 grit. The last diamond is 1500. Is it necessary for some reason to go back that far because of the diamonds aggressiveness or after 1.5k diamond can I just continue on to the 3k Chosera? Also the diamond kits lowest grit is 300. I've not not used diamond hones but is that enough for reprofiling? I know it wouldn't be in ceramic. I just want to get the most out of the system that I can on order because it may be awhile before I can order accessories. Oh man decisions decisions