Hi All, Looking for a link to educate me in the various uses of Paste and Diamond Sprays, the size of micron to use for applicable steels and the benefits. Right now I just use a honing compound, Fine Green Chromium Oxide and Aluminum Oxide Abrasive that looks like a large crayon applied to a leather strop. It does do a fine job for polishing the edge on my VG10 Delica.
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Strops and their role with various pastes and sprays?
- Thread starter Rhodies
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Wowbagger
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I don't know . . . I think the role of strops, pastes and sprays is to make the supplier money.
I hate that stuff. I was stropping an edge sharpened on a 400 stone just a couple nights ago.
My view hasn't changed.
Stones rule!
but in the spirit of camaraderie and knife dudeness :
Link to a link <<<<< hey, you didn't want me to make it TOO easy did you ?
I don't know . . . I think the role of strops, pastes and sprays is to make the supplier money.
I hate that stuff. I was stropping an edge sharpened on a 400 stone just a couple nights ago.
My view hasn't changed.
Stones rule!
but in the spirit of camaraderie and knife dudeness :
Link to a link <<<<< hey, you didn't want me to make it TOO easy did you ?
You just had to put the kabosh on me. eh?
I think it's a consensus view here among a lot of experienced sharpeners that stropping adds value, but I agree with part of
Wowbagger
's concern, it is possible to overthink it, make your sharpening process way too complicated, and spend too much $$ on a bunch of stuff that may only have a marginal impact on your results.
Here's a summary of my thoughts, which has some bearing on your OP question:
* I see stropping as a refining/finishing step in your sharpening process where the goal is to make your edge perform better by doing 3 things: (1) aligning it, (2) polishing it slightly, and (3) abrading it slightly to reduce edge width right at the apex. (Note: these 3 purposes of stropping are described, and documented with scanning electron microscopy images, at https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/).
* You could accomplish the same goals of stropping in other ways. For example, Wowbagger does it on his stones. But the prevailing practice amongst almost all sharpening pros I'm aware of here at BF is that it's easier, less prone to user error, and faster to accomplish the same results, by doing it on a strop. And the science of sharp site clearly documents with detailed photos that there is benefit from stropping, and that it's less prone to problems than the approach of, say, trying to do edge-trailing strokes on a stone.
* It's not necessary to go to great extremes in stropping (for example, like some of the Michael Christy videos) where you go through progressions of 3, 4, 5, 6, or even 7 strops, trying to polish your edge, using ever finer diamond emulsions, and get it insanely sharp. You CAN do that if you need a super high performing blade, but in no way is that necessary to get really excellent hair shaving sharpness from your EDU knives.
* I think for most EDU folders, kitchen, and fixed blade field/utility type knives, you can get away with 1 stropping stop, or at most, two. I've been doing two lately--adding clean leather after stropping on compound--but that's an experiment and I see it adding only marginal value that's not necessary for EDU knife tasks.
* To accomplish the goal (3) that I listed above--a small amount of abrasion to improve the keenness of your edge right at the apex--it's just going to go faster if you use some compound.
* If you want to use a single compound on a single strop that can sharpen all types of knife steels, and you have super steel knives, obviously you should use a diamond or cbn compound for best results. Other compounds probably work at some level too, but you can't escape physics and ultimately, to abrade the material in your blade efficiently you need something harder than that material. However, you gave the example of VG10, and if that is all you are sharpening, your AloX compound should be fine for that and other steels that don't have high vanadium carbide content.
* So bottom line from all this: yes you should strop, you can get by with a single stropping step for ordinary knives, and you'll often get faster results if you use some compound. I would not bother with getting a bunch of different compounds and worrying about a progression of strops, or putting a ton of thought into which compound. I would keep it simple and just use some kind of hard-backed strop (like a plain hardwood block, or perhaps a wood block with some denim or linen glued onto it), add a compound to it that will not be super coarse and aggressive (remember 2 of the goals from above are only to LIGHTLY polish the edge, and LIGHTLY abrade to remove a little metal right at the apex). So for example: a wood block, with linen glued to it, and maybe a 1 micron compound of diamonds or cbn. I think that's all you need for the vast majority of your sharpening.
Wowbagger
's concern, it is possible to overthink it, make your sharpening process way too complicated, and spend too much $$ on a bunch of stuff that may only have a marginal impact on your results. Here's a summary of my thoughts, which has some bearing on your OP question:
* I see stropping as a refining/finishing step in your sharpening process where the goal is to make your edge perform better by doing 3 things: (1) aligning it, (2) polishing it slightly, and (3) abrading it slightly to reduce edge width right at the apex. (Note: these 3 purposes of stropping are described, and documented with scanning electron microscopy images, at https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/).
* You could accomplish the same goals of stropping in other ways. For example, Wowbagger does it on his stones.
But the prevailing practice amongst almost all sharpening pros I'm aware of here at BF is that it's easier, less prone to user error, and faster to accomplish the same results, by doing it on a strop. And the science of sharp site clearly documents with detailed photos that there is benefit from stropping, and that it's less prone to problems than the approach of, say, trying to do edge-trailing strokes on a stone. * It's not necessary to go to great extremes in stropping (for example, like some of the Michael Christy videos) where you go through progressions of 3, 4, 5, 6, or even 7 strops, trying to polish your edge, using ever finer diamond emulsions, and get it insanely sharp. You CAN do that if you need a super high performing blade, but in no way is that necessary to get really excellent hair shaving sharpness from your EDU knives.
* I think for most EDU folders, kitchen, and fixed blade field/utility type knives, you can get away with 1 stropping stop, or at most, two. I've been doing two lately--adding clean leather after stropping on compound--but that's an experiment and I see it adding only marginal value that's not necessary for EDU knife tasks.
* To accomplish the goal (3) that I listed above--a small amount of abrasion to improve the keenness of your edge right at the apex--it's just going to go faster if you use some compound.
* If you want to use a single compound on a single strop that can sharpen all types of knife steels, and you have super steel knives, obviously you should use a diamond or cbn compound for best results. Other compounds probably work at some level too, but you can't escape physics and ultimately, to abrade the material in your blade efficiently you need something harder than that material. However, you gave the example of VG10, and if that is all you are sharpening, your AloX compound should be fine for that and other steels that don't have high vanadium carbide content.
* So bottom line from all this: yes you should strop, you can get by with a single stropping step for ordinary knives, and you'll often get faster results if you use some compound. I would not bother with getting a bunch of different compounds and worrying about a progression of strops, or putting a ton of thought into which compound. I would keep it simple and just use some kind of hard-backed strop (like a plain hardwood block, or perhaps a wood block with some denim or linen glued onto it), add a compound to it that will not be super coarse and aggressive (remember 2 of the goals from above are only to LIGHTLY polish the edge, and LIGHTLY abrade to remove a little metal right at the apex). So for example: a wood block, with linen glued to it, and maybe a 1 micron compound of diamonds or cbn. I think that's all you need for the vast majority of your sharpening.
Wowbagger
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value, but I agree with part of
No I'm all for making sharpening into an elaborate, ceremonial, epic, celebratorial, ritual. I like buying new tools and stones.
It is just that I find stropping to be not fun, frustrating, tedious and yes . . . less fast and effective than stones. There is a dirtiness to it that I abhor too . . . with a water stone I can rinse it flatten it and have this fresh surface ready to go . . . with a strop I have this heavily contaminated surface with all manner of old junk on it and no easy way to make it one consistent sharpening media again. Hell my jeans are a more pure surface.
Not that I have much of an opinion either way.
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Wowbagger
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I am going to have to look up this Kabosh that you speak of . . . if it involves choice bits of meat and bell peppers and such skewered and roasted I'm all for it.
Things did seem pretty dead in this thread . . . at least this way we can get 'er nicely "stirred up". . . I'm sure I will learn some things.
Cheers !
Just having fun... Actually I was looking for some tips on what paste or sprays to use on Super Steels? Maybe I am over thinking?
Wowbagger
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Did you follow my link that I left in my first post to the link about that ?
I mean . . . I mean . . . I been typing and searching my fingers to the bone over here . . . and not so much as a thanks that was what I was looking for
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/90ccf8df-7829-420f-928c-50a5ae747a48
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Yes, that link that you incl in your first post was helpful. Just skimmed through and it puts out a lot of useful information regarding the use of diamond paste and sprays. I will go through the thread tomorrow, taking notes along the way. So thanks Wowbagger
... But on a side note, don't you think that getyarn video clip was a bit of a stretch...
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Use diamond or cbn spray or emulsion on your strops. I like them alot. I've got some paste but I think paste is annoying to apply. I'm not experienced tho as I've just recently got into the stuff. Been reading alot of
Ken Schwartz stuff on the subject. All his stuff is made of high quality from Hand America. Also another guy I've been following on ig who recently started bottling his own cbn and diamond sprays and emulsions.
Don't think it's needed at all for vg10 tbo. But for super steel I'd recommend it.
Ken Schwartz stuff on the subject. All his stuff is made of high quality from Hand America. Also another guy I've been following on ig who recently started bottling his own cbn and diamond sprays and emulsions.
Don't think it's needed at all for vg10 tbo. But for super steel I'd recommend it.
I agree with your statement re: VG10, the green honing compound I use w/fine chromium oxide and aluminum oxide abrasive works good enough for me to put a fine polish on the edge. I have taken an interest in the next level regarding super steels e.g. M390, S35VN. Do I absolutely need diamond sprays or paste? Perhaps not but there are a lot of things in life I don't need so...
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I mean I've used green compound (SiC .5micron) without much problem on those steel types. Though after trying the diamond my eyes just lit up after using them.
I'd say it's something to try if you want to experiment. But not necessary.
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If you prefer a long and hard way, you can start by checking the steel manufacturer data sheets, the Grinding Recommendations.
You will read that Aluminium Oxide goes for this and that, Silicon Carbide for HSS, and tempered super steels require CBN.
Then apply what they say there to your stropping.
E.g. for S35VN Aluminium Oxide or Chromium Oxide is still OK though slow, but for M390 CBN or diamond.
Or you can take a shortcut and go straight for CBN or diamond as it covers all steels, as Maximus has explained above.
You will read that Aluminium Oxide goes for this and that, Silicon Carbide for HSS, and tempered super steels require CBN.
Then apply what they say there to your stropping.
E.g. for S35VN Aluminium Oxide or Chromium Oxide is still OK though slow, but for M390 CBN or diamond.
Or you can take a shortcut and go straight for CBN or diamond as it covers all steels, as Maximus has explained above.
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I think stropping is useful between sharpenings. I strop my knife on my pants leg on a regular basis. Just a few passes each side makes a noticeable difference if your knife is sharp enough to begin with.
annr
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I’ve worn holes in my pants and the fronts of my shirts wiping my blades, and I didn’t even know I was beneficially stropping them! Must be why they stayed so sharp so long!