Cushing H.
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2019
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For those of you who (likely most...) dont get the reference in the title, I refer to the following music video...
Yesterday my son was asking if I could make a knife for a friend of his who likes to cook. So, as part of that discussion, I was trying to talk about different types of steels this friend might want. I first went to Larrins data on toughness, then decided that a correctly used kitchen knife should not be abused so much that toughness is a real issue ... and so went to Larrins data on edge retention ( https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/ ). If you look at his chart on edge rention versus hardness ... this is wonderful data ... but it is enough to make your eyes cross. Add to that issues like how well it grinds, how straightforward the HT is, and how likely it is to warp .....
Well, you get the idea ..... it is easy to get lost in the metals.
The recent (current) thread on "best steels for hunting knives" kind of reinforces the potential for confusion .... lots of different ideas and perspectives out there. None wrong ... but each coming from a different set of experiences and perspectives. Horsewright has hundreds and hundreds of working knives out there made of A2, whereas rodriguez7 will swear by Z-wear, 4V or 3V .... all of which are on very different places on Larrins TCC chart (well, Z-wear isnt on there, but I will assume it lies somewhere between 4V and Z-Max....). It is enough to make you scream....
So ... unless one truly is a Knife Steel Nerd (and just want to try a steel for the sake of it, or are really interested in small differences in performance) .... what is one to do???
So ... this is what I am thinking. I have tried enough different steels to see/feel that they definitely work differently. O1 is kind of ... meh. AEBL is a PITA - hard to grind cleanly, and I still (for whatever reason) get pull-outs on the edge when I try to take it to a small TBE (I know this is not supposed to be the case ... but for me it definitely is an issue). A2 is reasonable to work with ... still a little fussy getting a clean grind, but not too bad. CPM-154 is very reasonable to grind (maybe because of the PM process and the microstructure it produces?), and 26C3 ("Spicy White") is wonderful to work ... at least pre-HT.
If you look at Larrins edge retention chart, the steels seem to fall into three basic categories. The first, centered around A2 and 1095 (mostly carbon or "simpler" steels) have lower edge retention and simpler heat treats (and I think tend to be used at lower HRC). The second group, centered roughly around S35VN and CPM-M4) have higher edge retention, tend to to be more complex (mostly "stainless"), have more complex HT, and (again from what I think I have seen) people tend to push to higher HRC. The last group, starting at ZDP-189 going up to Z-Max, have high edge retention, again more complex HT, and from what I have heard are an absolute bear to grind after HT (Z-Max even before), and basically forget about getting a mirror finish on them....
But, within each group (roughly), just how different are the steels in performance? Just how different in performance is A2 from 1095 and the other steels in this group (granted that there is some significant variaion in corrosion resistance in this group)??
How different, really, is CPM-154 from S35VN and S45VN? (previous discussion have indicated the differences between 35VN and 45VN are "small"). Z-Max seems to be in a world all its own .... but how different, really, are say S90V versus ZDP-189?
I am beginning to come to the conclusion that the way out of this is to, within each group, choose one (at most two) steels that work well for you (either by way of workability, cost, corrosion resistance (say A2 versus 1095).
For me (pretty exclusively kitchen knives) I am thinking A2 for non-stainless (maybe 26C3 if I want higher hardness). CPM-154 (maybe S35VN after I check workability) for stainless kitchen knives. If I really want to try to experience higher HRC, I might give Z-Max a try (but the task of grinding it might put me off....)
A knife meant for heavy duty field dressing (as rodriguez7 describes) is way, way out of my experience ... so I wont venture any thought on that one.
What do you all think ... is this approach a way out of the confusion ..... or am I just forever stuck in the metals??
Yesterday my son was asking if I could make a knife for a friend of his who likes to cook. So, as part of that discussion, I was trying to talk about different types of steels this friend might want. I first went to Larrins data on toughness, then decided that a correctly used kitchen knife should not be abused so much that toughness is a real issue ... and so went to Larrins data on edge retention ( https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/ ). If you look at his chart on edge rention versus hardness ... this is wonderful data ... but it is enough to make your eyes cross. Add to that issues like how well it grinds, how straightforward the HT is, and how likely it is to warp .....
Well, you get the idea ..... it is easy to get lost in the metals.
The recent (current) thread on "best steels for hunting knives" kind of reinforces the potential for confusion .... lots of different ideas and perspectives out there. None wrong ... but each coming from a different set of experiences and perspectives. Horsewright has hundreds and hundreds of working knives out there made of A2, whereas rodriguez7 will swear by Z-wear, 4V or 3V .... all of which are on very different places on Larrins TCC chart (well, Z-wear isnt on there, but I will assume it lies somewhere between 4V and Z-Max....). It is enough to make you scream....
So ... unless one truly is a Knife Steel Nerd (and just want to try a steel for the sake of it, or are really interested in small differences in performance) .... what is one to do???
So ... this is what I am thinking. I have tried enough different steels to see/feel that they definitely work differently. O1 is kind of ... meh. AEBL is a PITA - hard to grind cleanly, and I still (for whatever reason) get pull-outs on the edge when I try to take it to a small TBE (I know this is not supposed to be the case ... but for me it definitely is an issue). A2 is reasonable to work with ... still a little fussy getting a clean grind, but not too bad. CPM-154 is very reasonable to grind (maybe because of the PM process and the microstructure it produces?), and 26C3 ("Spicy White") is wonderful to work ... at least pre-HT.
If you look at Larrins edge retention chart, the steels seem to fall into three basic categories. The first, centered around A2 and 1095 (mostly carbon or "simpler" steels) have lower edge retention and simpler heat treats (and I think tend to be used at lower HRC). The second group, centered roughly around S35VN and CPM-M4) have higher edge retention, tend to to be more complex (mostly "stainless"), have more complex HT, and (again from what I think I have seen) people tend to push to higher HRC. The last group, starting at ZDP-189 going up to Z-Max, have high edge retention, again more complex HT, and from what I have heard are an absolute bear to grind after HT (Z-Max even before), and basically forget about getting a mirror finish on them....
But, within each group (roughly), just how different are the steels in performance? Just how different in performance is A2 from 1095 and the other steels in this group (granted that there is some significant variaion in corrosion resistance in this group)??
How different, really, is CPM-154 from S35VN and S45VN? (previous discussion have indicated the differences between 35VN and 45VN are "small"). Z-Max seems to be in a world all its own .... but how different, really, are say S90V versus ZDP-189?
I am beginning to come to the conclusion that the way out of this is to, within each group, choose one (at most two) steels that work well for you (either by way of workability, cost, corrosion resistance (say A2 versus 1095).
For me (pretty exclusively kitchen knives) I am thinking A2 for non-stainless (maybe 26C3 if I want higher hardness). CPM-154 (maybe S35VN after I check workability) for stainless kitchen knives. If I really want to try to experience higher HRC, I might give Z-Max a try (but the task of grinding it might put me off....)
A knife meant for heavy duty field dressing (as rodriguez7 describes) is way, way out of my experience ... so I wont venture any thought on that one.
What do you all think ... is this approach a way out of the confusion ..... or am I just forever stuck in the metals??