Student Chef - Advice First Stone Set

[TekPrimeMIA]

Where to begin~

I am a culinary arts student at the JWU North Miami Campus. After a year of use... my student supplied Mercer knifes are not very sharp and I don't believe they have ever been. I have a lot of spare time on my hands living in the dorm and would like to really get these sharp as hell, different knives are not an option at this time. I do own a shun but I'm letting them resharpen that and may attempt to sharpen it myself once i have developed my freehand skill.

I'm looking to spend ~200$. I could increase this slightly by consuming more ramen, but would prefer not to.

I have spent a few days looking at forums and reading reviews. I read zknife extensively and looked at the stones on dave's website (Beston\Aoto) and also looked at DMT and Naniwa stones.

I'm under the impression that I'm going to need a couple of different grits but I'm not sure which ones would be most effective. I'm more worried about cutting potential than polish.

So i think i need
1. a couple different grit stones
2. something to level the stones with
3. a belt
4. some way to keep the stones from destroying / sliding around my dorm desk

some things to consider
1. i prefer crafty over cheap i.e. i have my bed lifted with $1.15 cinderblocks vs $30.00 plastic purposed "bed risers"
Some considerations-
2. I'm going to store them in a wood lined steel trunk for anti theft purposes. keeping stones permanently wet is prop not an option

Your suggestions are greatly appreciated!

 

[diff_lock2]

Dmt extra coarse, dmt fine or spyderco medium, spyderco fine or ultra fine.

 

[Maniacal Pete]

I have cooked professionally for 35+ years.

As a hobbyist, I own a spyderco sharpmaker, an edgepro apex, and various leather strops.

At work I only use a Norton Crystolon 1x2.5x11.5" fine/coarse combination oil stone; "Jum3" (Norton# 61463685840) and a bottle of mineral oil.

I think any Norton fine / coarse combo stone at least 8" long will work fine (but I definitely prefer the 11 1/2" long stone myself).

You can get going for under $50.

Here's how I do it:

Set the stone coarse side up on a damp towel on the counter (to keep it from slipping),
apply a generous amount of mineral oil, and using both hands, one on the handle and one on the back of the blade,
and using the whole surface of the stone (so you don't wind up carving a hollow spot in the center),
stroke your knife on it with a 22 degree angle (half of 90 degrees, then half of that) around
20 strokes on each side, from handle end to tip, (and from side to side) as if you were shaving off the stone with the knife.

Use medium downward pressure.

Then do it 10 times each side,

then a few times each side until the steel starts to roll slightly to the other side along the entire edge.
You check it be rubbing the blade with your finger on the rolled side, you can actually feel that the steel is "hanging over."

More or less strokes may be required, of course, but I generally don't sharpen kitchen knives on a stone until they need it,
so I don't go through more knives than necessary, and the above rule of thumb for number of strokes has served me well.

Turn the stone over to the fine side and repeat, until you have polished the coarse edge and again raised a burr on both sides as you sharpen.

Make sure each burr runs the entire length of the blade, this will help to insure that you do not accidentally sharpen a hollow belly into the knife
(paying some more attention to the tip and heel of the knife helps with this too).

Finish on a kitchen steel to take off the remaining fine burr.

When you are done you should be able to visibly see, reflecting in a light,
a nice consistent clean bevel, along each side of the entire edge of the blade.

Be careful no one walks behind you and bumps you while you are sharpening in the kitchen.

Wipe the oil off the stone, and store it in the box it came in in your locker.

This is the basic idea, I sharpen all the knives in my kitchen for my cooks (about fifteen knives)
like this by hand as needed. It doesn't require expense, but it takes time and practice to get experienced.

Getting this aspect of the art under control is personally very satisfying, builds confidence,
and I'm sure no small part of what has drawn me to become more infatuated with sharp things
in general as time goes on.

Hopefully this will help you save some $ and you can buy a few shrimp and some fresh lime to put in your ramen.

Speaking of which, check out the Thai Mama brand Tom Yum (hot /sour) instant noodles - my favorite brand.

Good luck at chef school. :thumbup:

Please let us know how it goes.

Also: My Respect to the regulars in the sharpening forum,
I thought I was posting in the kitchen tools area, but
now that realize what I have done and have finished this long winded post
on how I personally sharpen as a professional, I sincerely
hope that you may humor me posting up my humble techniques.

I've been meaning to do it for a long time.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

First, get the $140 combo deal: Beston 500, Bester 1.2K, SuehiroRika 5K.
Buy strops only if you want your Shun ludicrous sharp.

 

[mkjellgren]

I have cooked professionally for 35+ years.

As a hobbyist, I own a spyderco sharpmaker, an edgepro apex, and various leather strops.

At work I only use a Norton Crystolon 1x2.5x11.5" fine/coarse combination oil stone; "Jum3" (Norton# 61463685840) and a bottle of mineral oil.

I think any Norton fine / coarse combo stone at least 8" long will work fine (but I definitely prefer the 11 1/2" long stone myself).

You can get going for under $50.

Here's how I do it:

Set the stone coarse side up on a damp towel on the counter (to keep it from slipping),
apply a generous amount of mineral oil, and using both hands, one on the handle and one on the back of the blade,
and using the whole surface of the stone (so you don't wind up carving a hollow spot in the center),
stroke your knife on it with a 22 degree angle (half of 90 degrees, then half of that) around
20 strokes on each side, from handle end to tip, (and from side to side) as if you were shaving off the stone with the knife.

Use medium downward pressure.

Then do it 10 times each side,

then a few times each side until the steel starts to roll slightly to the other side along the entire edge.
You check it be rubbing the blade with your finger on the rolled side, you can actually feel that the steel is "hanging over."

More or less strokes may be required, of course, but I generally don't sharpen kitchen knives on a stone until they need it,
so I don't go through more knives than necessary, and the above rule of thumb for number of strokes has served me well.

Switch to the fine stone and repeat, until you have polished the coarse edge and again raised a burr on both sides as you sharpen.

Make sure each burr runs the entire length of the blade, this will help to insure that you do not accidentally sharpen a hollow belly into the knife
(paying some more attention to the tip and heel of the knife helps with this too).

Finish on a kitchen steel to take off the burr, when you are done you should be able to
visibly see a nice consistent clean bevel, along each side of the entire edge of the blade.

Be careful no one walks behind you and bumps you while you are sharpening in the kitchen.

This is the basic idea, I sharpen all the knives in my kitchen for my cooks (about fifteen knives)
like this by hand as needed. It doesn't require expense, but it takes time and practice to get experienced.

Hopefully this will help you save some $ and you can buy a few shrimp and some fresh lime to put in some of your ramen.

Check out the Thai Mama brand Tom Yum (hot /sour) instant noodles - my favorite brand of ramen.

This is excellent advice. I also cook professionally, albeit for far fewer years than Pete, and I use a VERY similar system on my kitchen knives. The only difference being that my stones of choice are dmt diasharp diamond bench stones. I recommend a coarse and a fine grit diasharp. You can find a 2x6" double sided (coarse/fine) for around $50, but you may find you need a larger stone. In terms of size, get the largest you can afford. I prefer dmt stones because the cut VERY quickly, meaning you don't need to spend a lot of time sharpening, and because they are made of aluminum embedded with diamond abrasive, they stay flat. In fact, you can flatten other types of sharpening stones with the dmts. All in all, you have LOTS of options, but in my experience, the dmt diasharp stones are quite good. Good luck!!!

 

[Maniacal Pete]

This is excellent advice. I also cook professionally, albeit for far fewer years than Pete, and I use a VERY similar system on my kitchen knives. The only difference being that my stones of choice are dmt diasharp diamond bench stones. I recommend a coarse and a fine grit diasharp. You can find a 2x6" double sided (coarse/fine) for around $50, but you may find you need a larger stone. In terms of size, get the largest you can afford. I prefer dmt stones because the cut VERY quickly, meaning you don't need to spend a lot of time sharpening, and because they are made of aluminum embedded with diamond abrasive, they stay flat. In fact, you can flatten other types of sharpening stones with the dmts. All in all, you have LOTS of options, but in my experience, the dmt diasharp stones are quite good. Good luck!!!

Thanks!

I need to venture out and try some different stones.

So the DMT's do not use oil, right?

I think they may be my next acquisition,
I hear nothing but good things about them.

 

[mrdeus]

I just got my first set of stones a couple of days ago. I got a 1000 and 5000 Naniwa chosera. I was originally looking at the 1000 and 6000 Arashiyama water stones as I've seen them recommended many times, but I got a fairly good deal on the choseras.

Anyway, I didn't get any accessories for the stones. I already had a lapping plate for my edge pro stones. To keep the stone from sliding I just used a cheap microfiber cloth (meant to be used in the kitchen or while dusting and stuff). Worked like a charm. Kept the stone from sliding and absorbed the swarf (or whatever it's called) that came off the stone. I'm going to build a "rig" (a couple of planks screwed together) to place the stone on over the sink, then I'll put the same cloth on the wood and the stone on top.

 

[Jason B.]

I sharpen for professional chefs, home chefs, and your average knife enthusiasts and each has very different needs.

Each group will typically like a different style knife which also means a different style of sharpening. When dealing with high end Japanese cutlery the bevels can be half the side of a knife and made from laminated metals which require techniques similar to those used by a sword polisher. The stones used for these style of blades must match the task and are typically muddy or of natural origin. Most of the modern Gyutos sold are less demanding in the sharpening department and you will find harder stones that do more mirror type polishing to be used. Most common I hear recommended is the shapton glass or chosera stones.

Though I am a promoter of the use of DMT diamond stones I do NOT recommend their use with kitchen cutlery.

OP, for your needs I would recommend a 3 piece Shapton Glass stone set a stone holder and a kangaroo leather strop bare with no compound. They do not require soaking and are a common stone for the culinary student.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I have an simpler and cheaper method. Since DMT is too expensive to get down here, I went with Taedea folding sharpener that has 600 & 360 grit diamond.

Hold the sharpener in one hand, knife in another. For the use in kitchen, 600 is good enough. Strop on newspaper (put a layer or two on table or any hard surface) and it's good to go.
Cost: about 20$ shipped.

Caveat: I am not pro but I do like sharpening as hobby and maintain my wife knives (Victorinox, Henckel, Zyliss) abd my own pocket knives. The skills needed to do that is acquired over time using other sharpeners, i.e. stones over flat support, practice a lot.

The good thing about diamond (dmt if you choose that) is the abrasive works very fast and less pressure is needed. Therefore the burr formation can be minimized (more burr=more steel to be worn away) and you can check result sooner.

Good luck!

Edit to add:
Jason, why DMT not recommended for kitchen knives? Most of 'normal' (not enthusiasts) people kitchen knives are simple Japanese or Chinese 'high carbon stainlesa steel', which responds well to the diamond sharpener I use (Taedea).

Prior to getting that Taedea, I used cheap synthetic 320, 400 stones from Daisho convenient store for reprofiling, then followed with 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper and cardboard + Maas polish with good enough result.

Your insight will help me learning more

 

[mkjellgren]

Thanks!

I need to venture out and try some different stones.

So the DMT's do not use oil, right?

I think they may be my next acquisition,
I hear nothing but good things about them.

The dmt stones do not need oil. I use a little bit of soapy water just to keep them from clogging but that's about it.

As knifenut said, dmt stones are not going to be the best choice for very expensive, very specialized knives with extremely thin edges, but for 99 percent of kitchen knives, I find the dmts to be excellent.
I sharpen my shun premier knives on dmt stones with VERY satisfactory results. I do have some finer, more expensive bench stones at home, but I rarely find they are necessary.

 

[Jason B.]

Chris,

Japanese blades or even some of the high end cutlery currently sold is made of carbon steels such as Blue steel, White steel or low alloy stainless like 12c27 or CPM154. These steels at the high hardness typical (60+) are gouged by the diamonds which can cause small fractures in the edge from use. The high hardness also allows a higher level of finish to be supported which benefits the user by being more efficient at cutting food and leaving the food more intact.

Waterstones leave a much smoother and sharper finish to a cutting edge which is preferred for cutting food.

 

[DJG097]

Id go with a norton india stone followed by a chosera 1k and a strop.

 

[TekPrimeMIA]

I'd like to start by saying, thanks so much for all the replies and advice.

I've placed my order and will defiantly say I'm gonna be broke for a while but i think these stones will serve me well for a long time. I also plan to extended my range of grits in the future. I'm going to spend a lot of time sharpening my knives and hope to develop my skills to where i can charge other students on campus for my services. I decided on ceramic because in my situation a beautiful messy slurry is just not practical. I did purchase a DMT stone as recommended but for the purpose of lapping my other stones. None of my knives are damaged enough to justify a extremely high grit stone right now and the school has a mechanical knife grinder that i used to repair major chips in a cleaver so i believe i should be covered if the need arises again. I bored and have lots of time, this should be a good hobby. I've messed around with some Arkansas black and glass stones at my friends house before and like it alot.

DMT SR009 Non-Skid Mat 10x4"
DMT D8XX 8" Dia-Sharp
DMT ABG Aligner Blade Guide (Trainer? We'll see... )
Shapton Pro 1k
Shapton Pro 2k
Shapton Pro 5k
Deburring Felt Block

I also went home home yesterday to pick up my shun and found the knife tip completely removed :grumpy:
However... i also found 200$ sitting next to it so somebody's got the right idea.

As a result i've replaced it with a Kikuichi Performance TKC 240mm Gyuto

All and all i think i've made out like a bandit! Now the wait begins!

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Jason,

Thanks for clarification. I must assume that we're referring to different Japanese steel. The one commonly found used in household here is Tanica (at least this brand holds an edge) or even brandless, just marked Japanese stainless

From experience, they're softer than my Sanrenmu or Enlan, which in turn softer than Spyderco Resilience (60 RC as per Stefanwolf).

In any case it's clear for hard carbon steel, DMT might cause fractures.

OP: good luck! May your cooking brings happiness to your customer and yourself (helped by very sharp knives)

 

[bgentry]

To the OP:

Your order sounds like a pretty darned good setup. I don't have any waterstones.... YET.

I do have the DMT 8" XXC. If you need to do reprofiling or repair work, it's an amazing tool. It might be sort of a big jump from the XXC to a 1000 grit water stone... you'd think you'd want something like a 500 grit WS in the middle... but I don't own any so I can't say. I'm guessing you want to use the XXC to simply flatten your stones, but the Shaptons shouldn't require much flattening at all as far as I can tell. So you've got a double duty bad ass diamond stone.

If you haven't worked with water stones before, you should get some training. Watching the good guys on youtube is extremely helpful. Murray Carter's videos seem like a really good resource too. He just shot an all new version of his "Sharpening Fundamentals" video that's over 3 hours long. You can download it from his site for a bargain price: Just $25. With the amount you've spent on the equipment I think $25 more would be money very well spent to get some expert level training; albeit via video.

It's really cool to hear of someone who's passionate about cooking that's becoming passionate about working with their knives and keeping them in top cutting condition. Best of luck on your sharpening journey!

Brian.

 

[pwet]

agree with bryan, in about ten yrs cooking professionally i can count on one hand the guys that used really sharp knives. kudos.

you made a good choice with the shaptons, they are not my favorite because i don't like how they feel, but still it' one of the very best waterstone option, fast cutting, low wear, splash and go .... just take care if you want to carry yours with you in the kitchen and sharpen at work, waterstones and fat don't go well together, even fat mist from the grill can ruin a stone if stored nearby. don't ask me how i know. store them carefullyand when sharpening make sure that the worktable, towels, knife etc and your hands are perfectly clean.

 

[Lycosa]

Get 1000 grit water stone and a "smooth" steel and you are set.
Pull away from the stone.

 

[Maniacal Pete]

These steels at the high hardness typical (60+) are gouged by the diamonds which can cause small fractures in the edge from use.

I Though I am a promoter of the use of DMT diamond stones I do NOT recommend their use with kitchen cutlery.

Would my Edgepro Apex be a suitable tool for sharpening hard (60+) kitchen knives?

Also I saw you suggest a strop, is it typical to convex a kitchen knife, and why kangaroo?

 

[HeavyHanded]

I have cooked professionally for 35+ years.

As a hobbyist, I own a spyderco sharpmaker, an edgepro apex, and various leather strops.

At work I only use a Norton Crystolon 1x2.5x11.5" fine/coarse combination oil stone; "Jum3" (Norton# 61463685840) and a bottle of mineral oil.

I think any Norton fine / coarse combo stone at least 8" long will work fine (but I definitely prefer the 11 1/2" long stone myself).

You can get going for under $50.

Here's how I do it:

Set the stone coarse side up on a damp towel on the counter (to keep it from slipping),
apply a generous amount of mineral oil, and using both hands, one on the handle and one on the back of the blade,
and using the whole surface of the stone (so you don't wind up carving a hollow spot in the center),
stroke your knife on it with a 22 degree angle (half of 90 degrees, then half of that) around
20 strokes on each side, from handle end to tip, (and from side to side) as if you were shaving off the stone with the knife.

Use medium downward pressure.

Then do it 10 times each side,

then a few times each side until the steel starts to roll slightly to the other side along the entire edge.
You check it be rubbing the blade with your finger on the rolled side, you can actually feel that the steel is "hanging over."

More or less strokes may be required, of course, but I generally don't sharpen kitchen knives on a stone until they need it,
so I don't go through more knives than necessary, and the above rule of thumb for number of strokes has served me well.

Turn the stone over to the fine side and repeat, until you have polished the coarse edge and again raised a burr on both sides as you sharpen.

Make sure each burr runs the entire length of the blade, this will help to insure that you do not accidentally sharpen a hollow belly into the knife
(paying some more attention to the tip and heel of the knife helps with this too).

Finish on a kitchen steel to take off the remaining fine burr.

When you are done you should be able to visibly see, reflecting in a light,
a nice consistent clean bevel, along each side of the entire edge of the blade.

Be careful no one walks behind you and bumps you while you are sharpening in the kitchen.

Wipe the oil off the stone, and store it in the box it came in in your locker.

This is the basic idea, I sharpen all the knives in my kitchen for my cooks (about fifteen knives)
like this by hand as needed. It doesn't require expense, but it takes time and practice to get experienced.

Getting this aspect of the art under control is personally very satisfying, builds confidence,
and I'm sure no small part of what has drawn me to become more infatuated with sharp things
in general as time goes on.

Hopefully this will help you save some $ and you can buy a few shrimp and some fresh lime to put in your ramen.

Speaking of which, check out the Thai Mama brand Tom Yum (hot /sour) instant noodles - my favorite brand.

Good luck at chef school. :thumbup:

Please let us know how it goes.

Also: My Respect to the regulars in the sharpening forum,
I thought I was posting in the kitchen tools area, but
now that realize what I have done and have finished this long winded post
on how I personally sharpen as a professional, I sincerely
hope that you may humor me posting up my humble techniques.

I've been meaning to do it for a long time.

Two things,

first what type of steel do you use?

second, for most of my sharpening needs I've moved to the Norton Crystalon combo stone because it works so well on so many types of steel. One thing I started doing fairly recently - gently mop up the swarf and oil left behind on the fine side of the stone (I'll use a small file to whip up more mud if necessary) with a sheet of newspaper. Wrap the paper around the stone and strop on that. Finish stropping with a dry sheet of newspaper. Leaves a very nice all purpose edge and can easily be hit with finer compounds applied to the dry newspaper if a finer edge is desired.

 

[Lycosa]

I hear that the Spyderco dry stones work very well.